E35

E35 Transcript

Disclaimer

Episode transcripts were generated using podbean.ai, an AI language model. While we strive for accuracy, there may still be occasional errors or inaccuracies. We advise using these transcripts for reference but suggest discretion and professional transcript services for critical or highly accurate documentation.


 

WEBVTT

00:00:00.957 --> 00:00:04.337
<v Chris Patterson>Welcome to the Law Down Under podcast with Barrister Chris Patterson,

00:00:04.477 --> 00:00:07.777
<v Chris Patterson>where we'll give you insights into the law in New Zealand and Australia,

00:00:08.097 --> 00:00:09.957
<v Chris Patterson>its application and the law's future.

00:00:10.377 --> 00:00:14.217
<v Chris Patterson>Each episode features a new guest who will inspire your interest in the law

00:00:14.217 --> 00:00:17.997
<v Chris Patterson>and give you a greater understanding of the legal issues that help shape our

00:00:17.997 --> 00:00:19.577
<v Chris Patterson>justice system here down under.

00:00:19.957 --> 00:00:22.757
<v Chris Patterson>We thank you for tuning in and enjoy the podcast.

00:00:23.697 --> 00:00:27.457
<v Chris Patterson>Today on the Law Down Under podcast, I am joined today by Jessica Pellerat,

00:00:27.577 --> 00:00:31.157
<v Chris Patterson>who is the Executive Director of Lawyers for Climate Action New Zealand, Inc.

00:00:31.797 --> 00:00:35.577
<v Chris Patterson>It's a registered New Zealand charity. It's mobilising the legal profession

00:00:35.577 --> 00:00:38.297
<v Chris Patterson>to drive more ambitious climate change action.

00:00:38.557 --> 00:00:42.337
<v Chris Patterson>Jessica is a qualified lawyer. She's a former judge's clerk at the High Court

00:00:42.337 --> 00:00:45.917
<v Chris Patterson>in New Zealand and a junior barrister from Shortland Chambers in Auckland.

00:00:46.157 --> 00:00:50.497
<v Chris Patterson>She holds a Master's in Law from New York University specialising in international

00:00:50.497 --> 00:00:54.857
<v Chris Patterson>climate change litigation and has served as an International Human Rights Law

00:00:54.857 --> 00:00:56.697
<v Chris Patterson>Fellow at the United Nations in New York.

00:00:56.857 --> 00:01:00.377
<v Chris Patterson>Jessica leads the Lawyers Climate Action New Zealand, Inc.

00:01:00.837 --> 00:01:04.737
<v Chris Patterson>Their engagement in strategic climate litigation and legal education.

00:01:04.997 --> 00:01:09.297
<v Chris Patterson>She's frequently advocating for the integration of sustainability and climate

00:01:09.297 --> 00:01:11.197
<v Chris Patterson>issues into mainstream legal training.

00:01:11.457 --> 00:01:13.397
<v Chris Patterson>Good morning and welcome, Jessica. How are you today?

00:01:13.757 --> 00:01:15.477
<v Jessica Palairet>Kia ora. It's wonderful to be here.

00:01:15.737 --> 00:01:20.237
<v Chris Patterson>Kia ora. It's really great to have you here. What a great area to talk about

00:01:20.237 --> 00:01:23.437
<v Chris Patterson>today, and that is climate change and climate change action.

00:01:23.837 --> 00:01:27.797
<v Chris Patterson>Its impact isn't just here in New Zealand or Australia, here down under,

00:01:28.486 --> 00:01:32.906
<v Chris Patterson>But it's a global issue, so I'm super excited. But really, I think,

00:01:33.126 --> 00:01:38.666
<v Chris Patterson>you know, today, let's talk about, to start off with, let's talk about climate

00:01:38.666 --> 00:01:42.566
<v Chris Patterson>change and what the legal landscape is here in New Zealand.

00:01:42.866 --> 00:01:47.306
<v Chris Patterson>Before we do that, what's your journey? How did you get involved in climate and environmental law?

00:01:47.986 --> 00:01:51.906
<v Chris Patterson>How have you ended up landing in that really important space?

00:01:52.146 --> 00:01:56.366
<v Jessica Palairet>Yeah, it's a really good, really good question. So I was, as you said in your

00:01:56.366 --> 00:02:02.366
<v Jessica Palairet>intro, working at Shortland Chamber, And I met a wonderful lawyer called Jenny

00:02:02.366 --> 00:02:06.246
<v Jessica Palairet>Cooper Casey, who is a senior barrister at Shortland Chambers.

00:02:06.446 --> 00:02:12.406
<v Jessica Palairet>And I was working predominantly in commercial civil litigation and started to

00:02:12.406 --> 00:02:17.926
<v Jessica Palairet>do some volunteer work for Lawyers for Climate Action. This is back in 2021, I'm going to say.

00:02:18.626 --> 00:02:24.806
<v Jessica Palairet>And the more that I started to work on these issues, the more I realized,

00:02:25.046 --> 00:02:30.366
<v Jessica Palairet>what on earth am I doing if I don't have a career dedicated to this issue?

00:02:30.546 --> 00:02:35.866
<v Jessica Palairet>I think that when you work in civil litigation, I mean, in all sorts of fields,

00:02:35.866 --> 00:02:38.386
<v Jessica Palairet>actually, so often the work becomes difficult.

00:02:39.217 --> 00:02:42.117
<v Jessica Palairet>All consuming and your head is down engaged

00:02:42.117 --> 00:02:44.877
<v Jessica Palairet>in whatever contractual dispute you happen to be working on

00:02:44.877 --> 00:02:47.897
<v Jessica Palairet>that day and gets to the end of the day and you

00:02:47.897 --> 00:02:52.157
<v Jessica Palairet>might see a news story flash up you know hottest months on record around the

00:02:52.157 --> 00:02:57.697
<v Jessica Palairet>world or wildfires ravaging through California and you go oh yeah no that's

00:02:57.697 --> 00:03:01.797
<v Jessica Palairet>this that's a big problem but you're so consumed in your work you just don't

00:03:01.797 --> 00:03:06.577
<v Jessica Palairet>feel like you can do anything about it or you don't have the headspace to really do anything about it.

00:03:06.697 --> 00:03:09.977
<v Jessica Palairet>And the more I'd started doing volunteer work for Lawyers for Climate Action.

00:03:10.337 --> 00:03:14.717
<v Jessica Palairet>Learning about this movement of climate litigation and climate lawyers around

00:03:14.717 --> 00:03:19.097
<v Jessica Palairet>the world using their legal skills, you know, for good to try and make a difference,

00:03:19.237 --> 00:03:24.197
<v Jessica Palairet>the more I went, this is what I've got to do. And I think it's fascinating legal issues.

00:03:24.377 --> 00:03:27.757
<v Jessica Palairet>You know, we work at the intersection of public law and, you know,

00:03:27.877 --> 00:03:31.957
<v Jessica Palairet>commercial law, and we're really pushing the law in new directions.

00:03:31.957 --> 00:03:35.877
<v Jessica Palairet>So it's intellectually incredibly stimulating and interesting and engaging.

00:03:36.117 --> 00:03:41.017
<v Jessica Palairet>But the other thing that I just love about it is I didn't want a career where my head was down.

00:03:41.337 --> 00:03:46.297
<v Jessica Palairet>You know, I wanted a career where I look up and engage in the world around me

00:03:46.297 --> 00:03:49.817
<v Jessica Palairet>and try and use my legal skills to make a difference.

00:03:49.837 --> 00:03:52.637
<v Jessica Palairet>And that's actually what we're all about at Lawyers for Climate Action.

00:03:52.637 --> 00:03:56.257
<v Jessica Palairet>We're all about trying to get as many people in the legal community as we can

00:03:56.257 --> 00:04:01.897
<v Jessica Palairet>to look up, to provide ways to use their legal skills for the planet, for the climate.

00:04:02.077 --> 00:04:04.977
<v Jessica Palairet>And so that's how I got into it. So I was working at Shortland Chambers.

00:04:05.177 --> 00:04:08.777
<v Jessica Palairet>It was a very, very normal path from Chambers to go do your master's degree.

00:04:09.491 --> 00:04:12.731
<v Jessica Palairet>But where I kind of stepped off the normal path is instead of,

00:04:12.731 --> 00:04:16.891
<v Jessica Palairet>you know, then going into, say, a pupillage program in the UK or into a big

00:04:16.891 --> 00:04:20.731
<v Jessica Palairet>international firm, I used my master's as an opportunity to try to pivot into

00:04:20.731 --> 00:04:22.391
<v Jessica Palairet>strategic public interest litigation.

00:04:22.771 --> 00:04:26.691
<v Jessica Palairet>And so I specialised in these areas in my master's, worked at the UN,

00:04:26.691 --> 00:04:31.351
<v Jessica Palairet>and then got given the amazing opportunity to move back to New Zealand and start

00:04:31.351 --> 00:04:33.211
<v Jessica Palairet>as lawyers for climate actions.

00:04:33.771 --> 00:04:37.971
<v Jessica Palairet>First staff member, we've been entirely volunteer run up until the point that

00:04:37.971 --> 00:04:40.631
<v Jessica Palairet>I started about two years ago to the day now.

00:04:40.831 --> 00:04:44.591
<v Jessica Palairet>So I moved back to New Zealand, something which I actually think is quite uncommon

00:04:44.591 --> 00:04:48.211
<v Jessica Palairet>if you're a lawyer and you've moved overseas in your kind of mid to late 20s.

00:04:48.291 --> 00:04:51.731
<v Jessica Palairet>To move back quite quickly is something that not many people do these days.

00:04:51.971 --> 00:04:56.771
<v Jessica Palairet>But I moved back because it was such a cool opportunity and I had the enormous

00:04:56.771 --> 00:05:01.671
<v Jessica Palairet>privilege of, yeah, working to drive strategic public interest litigation in New Zealand.

00:05:02.191 --> 00:05:07.751
<v Chris Patterson>Look, I think we're glad to have you come back to New Zealand because it is

00:05:07.751 --> 00:05:14.371
<v Chris Patterson>just an unfortunate reality that so much of our young, talented lawyers go overseas

00:05:14.371 --> 00:05:16.091
<v Chris Patterson>and they settle there for good.

00:05:16.431 --> 00:05:19.071
<v Chris Patterson>And, you know, some do come back, but many don't.

00:05:19.637 --> 00:05:24.617
<v Chris Patterson>Tell me a little bit about your decision to select New York University for your master's degree.

00:05:24.857 --> 00:05:29.617
<v Chris Patterson>Was there any thinking around that? What was the thought process that landed you there?

00:05:30.117 --> 00:05:33.837
<v Jessica Palairet>Yeah, good question. I mean, it's a leading law school. They've got an incredibly

00:05:33.837 --> 00:05:35.517
<v Jessica Palairet>strong public interest program.

00:05:35.897 --> 00:05:38.857
<v Jessica Palairet>I was very attracted to the idea of moving to New York City.

00:05:39.037 --> 00:05:40.817
<v Jessica Palairet>It's a very hard city to move to.

00:05:41.237 --> 00:05:44.997
<v Jessica Palairet>Visas are very, very hard to get. Lottery system and moving as a master's student

00:05:44.997 --> 00:05:48.097
<v Jessica Palairet>gives you a visa and actually gives you working rights for a year afterwards.

00:05:48.097 --> 00:05:50.037
<v Jessica Palairet>So that was incredibly attractive.

00:05:50.137 --> 00:05:54.097
<v Jessica Palairet>It was also because my partner had got into Columbia University and deferred

00:05:54.097 --> 00:05:56.377
<v Jessica Palairet>it, and we thought it'd be fun to move overseas together.

00:05:56.557 --> 00:06:00.997
<v Jessica Palairet>So I actually only applied for NYU and Columbia and had neither of those worked.

00:06:01.057 --> 00:06:05.157
<v Jessica Palairet>I then would have looked to do something else the following year at a different university.

00:06:05.337 --> 00:06:10.977
<v Jessica Palairet>So that was really wide. But, I mean, it's got a fantastic international law program.

00:06:11.317 --> 00:06:15.417
<v Jessica Palairet>Like, I think it is a top 10 law school in the world. So the opportunity to

00:06:15.417 --> 00:06:17.857
<v Jessica Palairet>go there is just awesome. So that was it.

00:06:18.357 --> 00:06:21.377
<v Chris Patterson>I think it was Obama a graduate of NYU.

00:06:21.817 --> 00:06:26.317
<v Jessica Palairet>Oh, look, I wish I could say yes. I don't know if he was. I think he was Harvard.

00:06:26.497 --> 00:06:30.257
<v Jessica Palairet>But many other people, many other people, many other good people have been grads of NYU.

00:06:30.937 --> 00:06:32.877
<v Jessica Palairet>But yes, I don't think Obama, sadly.

00:06:34.113 --> 00:06:38.493
<v Chris Patterson>Not that this is about me, but in 96 and 97, I lived across the road from Hofstra

00:06:38.493 --> 00:06:39.993
<v Chris Patterson>University on Long Island.

00:06:40.353 --> 00:06:46.133
<v Chris Patterson>And yeah, look, some great law schools in New York. Great place to travel to

00:06:46.133 --> 00:06:48.053
<v Chris Patterson>and study. What a wonderful experience.

00:06:48.353 --> 00:06:55.473
<v Chris Patterson>Now, what was their course or their programs like for international climate change litigation?

00:06:55.813 --> 00:06:58.713
<v Chris Patterson>Was there a program there that you were able to slot into?

00:06:58.973 --> 00:07:04.233
<v Jessica Palairet>There was. So there was a clinic, and clinical programs are quite common in

00:07:04.233 --> 00:07:06.393
<v Jessica Palairet>U.S. universities. We don't have them so much here.

00:07:06.553 --> 00:07:11.013
<v Jessica Palairet>But it was a full-year paper called the Earth Rights Advocacy Clinic,

00:07:11.013 --> 00:07:13.693
<v Jessica Palairet>and it was an amazing opportunity.

00:07:14.593 --> 00:07:20.593
<v Jessica Palairet>We worked with environmental and climate lawyers and indigenous peoples in the

00:07:20.593 --> 00:07:22.713
<v Jessica Palairet>Amazon, in the Brazilian Amazon, and we traveled.

00:07:22.833 --> 00:07:27.293
<v Jessica Palairet>There was a group of three of us, three students, me and then two American JD

00:07:27.293 --> 00:07:33.173
<v Jessica Palairet>students. we traveled to the Amazonian rainforest to visit the Belomonte Dam

00:07:33.173 --> 00:07:37.293
<v Jessica Palairet>and all these issues, and we'd been working on some projects around deforestation in the Amazon.

00:07:37.533 --> 00:07:40.313
<v Jessica Palairet>And so as part of my university course, I got to literally go,

00:07:40.433 --> 00:07:42.253
<v Jessica Palairet>we went to capital of Brazil.

00:07:42.313 --> 00:07:48.333
<v Jessica Palairet>We worked with WWF Brazil, and it was a training on kind of like an expert roundtable.

00:07:48.673 --> 00:07:53.333
<v Jessica Palairet>It was all in another language, so it was a little bit challenging from my perspective to my Duolingo.

00:07:53.493 --> 00:07:56.693
<v Jessica Palairet>I was trying my best, but I had to rely quite evenly on the translators there.

00:07:56.693 --> 00:08:01.593
<v Jessica Palairet>But that was an amazing experience, met with some Brazilian judges in the capital

00:08:01.593 --> 00:08:03.513
<v Jessica Palairet>of Brazil. And then we went into the rainforest.

00:08:03.673 --> 00:08:08.193
<v Jessica Palairet>And I mean, I had this experience. We visited an indigenous community and the

00:08:08.193 --> 00:08:11.593
<v Jessica Palairet>kids that were at that community thought my accent was hilarious.

00:08:11.893 --> 00:08:15.653
<v Jessica Palairet>And of course, I went, well, there's a decent chance that.

00:08:16.217 --> 00:08:17.817
<v Chris Patterson>No New Zealander, very,

00:08:18.017 --> 00:08:22.337
<v Jessica Palairet>Very few New Zealanders have ever come to this particular indigenous village before.

00:08:22.517 --> 00:08:25.657
<v Jessica Palairet>So of course my accent sounds crazy, but it was that kind of opportunity.

00:08:25.657 --> 00:08:29.217
<v Jessica Palairet>And you're meeting people who are at the front line of the climate crisis who,

00:08:29.217 --> 00:08:34.957
<v Jessica Palairet>you know, that walk us and show us, you know, the river used to be up to here

00:08:34.957 --> 00:08:38.597
<v Jessica Palairet>and now it's not. And we're not getting as many fish and we're noticing the differences.

00:08:38.897 --> 00:08:44.257
<v Jessica Palairet>And we met these young kids, like young kids in this indigenous community who

00:08:44.257 --> 00:08:46.117
<v Jessica Palairet>are at the front line of the climate crisis.

00:08:46.217 --> 00:08:50.757
<v Jessica Palairet>They didn't choose to be born in a tiny indigenous community in the Amazonian

00:08:50.757 --> 00:08:56.497
<v Jessica Palairet>rainforest to then have to be fighting to stop a big dam going up in their area.

00:08:56.497 --> 00:08:57.697
<v Jessica Palairet>They didn't choose that.

00:08:57.797 --> 00:09:00.057
<v Jessica Palairet>But it's the burden that they're born into.

00:09:00.797 --> 00:09:04.417
<v Jessica Palairet>What an amazing privilege to be able to meet them and see that firsthand.

00:09:05.097 --> 00:09:08.597
<v Jessica Palairet>So that's the kind of program, that's the kind of course I got to do at NYU.

00:09:08.797 --> 00:09:12.297
<v Chris Patterson>How cool is that? What a great experience. I mean, such a wonderful experience.

00:09:12.297 --> 00:09:16.917
<v Chris Patterson>But I suspect even living in New York, they would have found your accent somewhat

00:09:16.917 --> 00:09:18.997
<v Chris Patterson>interesting and amusing. That's true.

00:09:19.797 --> 00:09:26.737
<v Chris Patterson>Yeah. Anyway, look, let's talk about, start bringing a little bit more back

00:09:26.737 --> 00:09:28.937
<v Chris Patterson>to Aotearoa, back here to New Zealand.

00:09:29.497 --> 00:09:33.777
<v Chris Patterson>I think some people and some of the listeners will appreciate that.

00:09:34.117 --> 00:09:37.677
<v Chris Patterson>Look, you don't have to travel as far. I mean, great, great thing to do to go

00:09:37.677 --> 00:09:44.137
<v Chris Patterson>to the Amazon. But you don't need to travel that far to see firsthand the effects of climate change.

00:09:44.988 --> 00:09:48.908
<v Chris Patterson>We live on here in Auckland, right on the edge of the Hauraki Gulf.

00:09:49.188 --> 00:09:55.468
<v Chris Patterson>And just within the last 15 years, the gulf is changing in a really,

00:09:55.628 --> 00:09:57.868
<v Chris Patterson>really concerning and disturbing way.

00:09:58.148 --> 00:10:06.688
<v Chris Patterson>The amount of sea life is declining and it seems to be going really badly in the wrong direction.

00:10:07.088 --> 00:10:12.368
<v Chris Patterson>And the experts are saying that this is what climate change looks like.

00:10:12.368 --> 00:10:15.348
<v Chris Patterson>You know, you can't, you know, I mean,

00:10:15.368 --> 00:10:19.448
<v Chris Patterson>I had a place on Great Barrier Island for 14 years and used to go out there

00:10:19.448 --> 00:10:25.508
<v Chris Patterson>and gather crayfish and snapper and you'd see an abundance of sea life and seaweed

00:10:25.508 --> 00:10:28.188
<v Chris Patterson>and sponges and all sorts of wonderful things and they're gone.

00:10:28.428 --> 00:10:33.908
<v Chris Patterson>They don't, they're not there anymore. So that's the reality of a warming environment.

00:10:34.148 --> 00:10:38.208
<v Chris Patterson>Now, I just happened to do a little bit of research before you came in and joined me.

00:10:38.848 --> 00:10:43.288
<v Chris Patterson>And I had picked up that every three years, the Ministry of the Environment

00:10:43.288 --> 00:10:45.828
<v Chris Patterson>and Stats New Zealand, you might have come across this report.

00:10:45.988 --> 00:10:51.288
<v Chris Patterson>They've just released this week a report on the marine environment here in New Zealand.

00:10:52.448 --> 00:10:56.108
<v Chris Patterson>And I just thought I'd share this with you. It's also picked up,

00:10:56.228 --> 00:11:01.048
<v Chris Patterson>this report's picked up, I noticed, international attention by way of The Guardian

00:11:01.048 --> 00:11:03.488
<v Chris Patterson>in the UK. They've reported on it as well.

00:11:04.352 --> 00:11:07.652
<v Chris Patterson>But what the report says, I'm not going to go through, read the whole thing,

00:11:07.732 --> 00:11:09.032
<v Chris Patterson>I'll just read a couple of things out.

00:11:09.132 --> 00:11:13.912
<v Chris Patterson>But it said in there that New Zealand's isolation does not shield us from the

00:11:13.912 --> 00:11:16.852
<v Chris Patterson>far-reaching effects of global climate change.

00:11:17.352 --> 00:11:21.112
<v Chris Patterson>Instead, the changes to our oceans highlight the importance of understanding

00:11:21.112 --> 00:11:24.912
<v Chris Patterson>how climate, ocean health and human health are all connected.

00:11:25.632 --> 00:11:30.272
<v Chris Patterson>It goes on to say that climate change shapes the condition in New Zealand's marine environment.

00:11:30.272 --> 00:11:37.792
<v Chris Patterson>The oceans absorb approximately 25% of global carbon dioxide emissions and more

00:11:37.792 --> 00:11:42.412
<v Chris Patterson>than 90% of the excess heat generated by those emissions,

00:11:42.712 --> 00:11:46.112
<v Chris Patterson>making them critical to stabilizing the Earth's climate.

00:11:46.592 --> 00:11:50.912
<v Chris Patterson>That's come from a UN scientific report. I mean, effectively,

00:11:50.932 --> 00:11:53.212
<v Chris Patterson>the oceans are like a big heat sink.

00:11:53.812 --> 00:11:58.072
<v Chris Patterson>They're like our air conditioning system. They absorb in all this heat.

00:11:58.212 --> 00:12:00.052
<v Chris Patterson>But then, of course, the energy's got to go somewhere.

00:12:00.272 --> 00:12:03.412
<v Chris Patterson>Right, they go on to say, however, absorbing all this heat and carbon dioxide

00:12:03.412 --> 00:12:08.812
<v Chris Patterson>makes the ocean warmer and more aesthetic, and the impacts of this are felt

00:12:08.812 --> 00:12:10.452
<v Chris Patterson>across New Zealand's marine ecosystem.

00:12:11.012 --> 00:12:15.032
<v Chris Patterson>Climate change is altering where species are able to live, distribute food webs,

00:12:15.252 --> 00:12:17.752
<v Chris Patterson>increasing the vulnerability of habitats such as kelp forests,

00:12:18.252 --> 00:12:23.292
<v Chris Patterson>shellfish beds, coral communities, for some reasons experiencing more severe change than others.

00:12:23.432 --> 00:12:27.652
<v Chris Patterson>And look, I mean, I haven't done my own personal survey around the coastline,

00:12:27.752 --> 00:12:33.112
<v Chris Patterson>but I know through my own experience as a experienced scuba diver it is changing

00:12:33.112 --> 00:12:37.752
<v Chris Patterson>i'm seeing it myself the ocean around new zealand is also warming faster than

00:12:37.752 --> 00:12:42.532
<v Chris Patterson>the global average with more intense and longer and more frequent marine heat waves now

00:12:43.197 --> 00:12:47.037
<v Chris Patterson>When you dig into their report, what does warming faster than the global average?

00:12:47.257 --> 00:12:54.877
<v Chris Patterson>Well, they say it's warming 34% faster here in New Zealand than the rest of the globe on average.

00:12:55.497 --> 00:12:59.117
<v Chris Patterson>Sea levels are rising, they're driven water expanding, water's expanding as

00:12:59.117 --> 00:13:03.717
<v Chris Patterson>it warms along the mountain polar glacial, vertical land movements are a factor in some areas.

00:13:03.897 --> 00:13:08.897
<v Chris Patterson>Sea levels rise, already affecting low-lying coastal areas, increasing the frequency

00:13:08.897 --> 00:13:12.097
<v Chris Patterson>and severity of coastal flooding and erosion. And hey, I mean,

00:13:12.557 --> 00:13:14.897
<v Chris Patterson>New Zealand, we're a group of islands.

00:13:15.157 --> 00:13:17.837
<v Chris Patterson>We've got two massive islands and a whole lot of smaller ones.

00:13:18.057 --> 00:13:19.797
<v Chris Patterson>You know, we are a coastal people.

00:13:20.097 --> 00:13:22.957
<v Chris Patterson>We really are. These changes, well, unless you're from Palmerston North,

00:13:23.177 --> 00:13:25.777
<v Chris Patterson>you know, but even then, you haven't got far to go to get to the coast.

00:13:26.177 --> 00:13:29.377
<v Chris Patterson>These changes pose growing risks to infrastructure, housing,

00:13:29.517 --> 00:13:31.237
<v Chris Patterson>livelihood, culturally significant sites,

00:13:31.737 --> 00:13:34.777
<v Chris Patterson>shifts in ocean currents, temperatures are beginning to influence marine and

00:13:34.777 --> 00:13:39.197
<v Chris Patterson>plant animals, and this affects our unique native species, key commercial fish

00:13:39.197 --> 00:13:42.437
<v Chris Patterson>stocks, with implications for fishery management and food security.

00:13:43.134 --> 00:13:48.114
<v Chris Patterson>Well, okay, so this is what our own experts are telling us,

00:13:48.514 --> 00:13:54.934
<v Chris Patterson>okay, what can the law do and what can Climate Action New Zealand do to try

00:13:54.934 --> 00:14:02.314
<v Chris Patterson>and address where, which anyone on an objective analysis should be looking at this saying,

00:14:02.494 --> 00:14:08.154
<v Chris Patterson>this isn't a small problem that we can just ignore and hope it's all going to get better, it's not,

00:14:08.394 --> 00:14:12.014
<v Chris Patterson>it's already a disaster and it's just going to get worse.

00:14:12.014 --> 00:14:14.254
<v Chris Patterson>So what can lawyers do about it?

00:14:14.454 --> 00:14:17.714
<v Jessica Palairet>What a good question and sobering article.

00:14:18.154 --> 00:14:22.274
<v Jessica Palairet>I mean, the science is incredibly clear on climate change. It actually has been

00:14:22.274 --> 00:14:24.274
<v Jessica Palairet>for a very, very long time.

00:14:24.654 --> 00:14:31.434
<v Jessica Palairet>And many people, or this decade, the 2020s, the critical decade for climate

00:14:31.434 --> 00:14:33.594
<v Jessica Palairet>action, we're halfway through it now.

00:14:33.774 --> 00:14:38.094
<v Jessica Palairet>And it's been now 10 years since the Paris Agreement was signed.

00:14:38.094 --> 00:14:42.574
<v Jessica Palairet>And it's pretty well acknowledged that we're not on track for 1.5 degrees.

00:14:42.854 --> 00:14:46.234
<v Jessica Palairet>And that means that we're living through an era of climate consequences.

00:14:46.234 --> 00:14:51.034
<v Jessica Palairet>We're seeing the consequences of our actions and we're seeing the consequences of climate change.

00:14:51.154 --> 00:14:55.574
<v Jessica Palairet>And one of the scary things about the consequences of climate change is there's

00:14:55.574 --> 00:14:56.874
<v Jessica Palairet>a whole heap of uncertainties.

00:14:57.014 --> 00:15:00.934
<v Jessica Palairet>We've never pushed the planet to these limits before.

00:15:01.174 --> 00:15:07.974
<v Jessica Palairet>So there's, in the literature, there's a science about tipping points and what happens when major...

00:15:08.556 --> 00:15:13.736
<v Jessica Palairet>Major kind of parts of our environment get pushed past the point of no return

00:15:13.736 --> 00:15:17.736
<v Jessica Palairet>and we don't actually know what the consequences of those are.

00:15:18.036 --> 00:15:22.456
<v Jessica Palairet>So it's a really scary kind of set of facts and reality that we're presented with.

00:15:22.656 --> 00:15:26.876
<v Jessica Palairet>But I think your question, this is why I love talking about the role of the

00:15:26.876 --> 00:15:30.256
<v Jessica Palairet>law, is it is something tangible that we can do.

00:15:30.416 --> 00:15:35.176
<v Jessica Palairet>I mean, often you hear in circles of what we need is systemic change.

00:15:36.076 --> 00:15:40.216
<v Jessica Palairet>And yeah, we probably, we do need systemic change, but how on earth do you achieve that?

00:15:40.416 --> 00:15:43.836
<v Jessica Palairet>I think sometimes you hear calls for systems change so much,

00:15:43.876 --> 00:15:45.336
<v Jessica Palairet>it almost feels a bit like a buzzword.

00:15:45.536 --> 00:15:50.076
<v Jessica Palairet>But this is what I love about the law, which is the legal system is a very important

00:15:50.076 --> 00:15:53.776
<v Jessica Palairet>aspect of how you can get systemic change.

00:15:53.896 --> 00:15:56.096
<v Jessica Palairet>And there are levers that you can pull in the legal system.

00:15:56.256 --> 00:15:59.496
<v Jessica Palairet>So you need the right laws in place. You need the right laws in place because

00:15:59.496 --> 00:16:02.756
<v Jessica Palairet>they drive incentives and they drive accountability and kind of lay out the

00:16:02.756 --> 00:16:04.656
<v Jessica Palairet>rules of the game, as we all know.

00:16:04.856 --> 00:16:06.936
<v Jessica Palairet>So getting the right laws in place is important.

00:16:07.176 --> 00:16:10.736
<v Jessica Palairet>And then also, you need to make sure those laws are actually enforced.

00:16:10.836 --> 00:16:15.056
<v Jessica Palairet>And so that's where the strategic climate litigation part of our work comes in.

00:16:15.476 --> 00:16:21.436
<v Jessica Palairet>The third part of what we do at Lawyers for Climate Action as well is education and awareness raising.

00:16:21.736 --> 00:16:25.016
<v Jessica Palairet>Climate change is going to affect almost all areas of legal practice.

00:16:25.196 --> 00:16:27.356
<v Jessica Palairet>If you're an insolvency lawyer, climate change is relevant.

00:16:27.856 --> 00:16:30.096
<v Jessica Palairet>Yes, obviously, if you're an environmental lawyer, it's relevant.

00:16:30.096 --> 00:16:34.176
<v Jessica Palairet>If you're a criminal lawyer, there's increasing kind of climate protesters and cases around that.

00:16:34.596 --> 00:16:38.936
<v Jessica Palairet>So I think there's that education-raising piece of it as well.

00:16:39.116 --> 00:16:44.676
<v Jessica Palairet>But, I mean, the legal system, it is, I think, one of the most powerful responses

00:16:44.676 --> 00:16:48.856
<v Jessica Palairet>that we can have in terms of raising ambition and raising accountability and

00:16:48.856 --> 00:16:50.576
<v Jessica Palairet>transparency on decision-making.

00:16:50.976 --> 00:16:52.716
<v Jessica Palairet>The science is very, very clear.

00:16:52.936 --> 00:16:56.496
<v Jessica Palairet>The law is one way in which we can really make the rubber hit the road.

00:16:56.496 --> 00:16:59.876
<v Chris Patterson>Okay. It's one of the difficulties, I'm just kind of thinking,

00:17:00.076 --> 00:17:03.996
<v Chris Patterson>I mean, I was really fortunate a couple of years ago, I had Craig Effie join

00:17:03.996 --> 00:17:09.516
<v Chris Patterson>me to talk about taxation in a global environment and just the challenges when

00:17:09.516 --> 00:17:12.036
<v Chris Patterson>you're dealing with cross-border issues.

00:17:12.887 --> 00:17:17.747
<v Chris Patterson>That climate response needs to be, has to be a level playing field.

00:17:17.867 --> 00:17:19.327
<v Chris Patterson>I mean, you know, there's no point.

00:17:20.467 --> 00:17:26.627
<v Chris Patterson>I mean, we've got a big expanse of the Tasman Sea between us and one of our

00:17:26.627 --> 00:17:29.127
<v Chris Patterson>neighbours in the Pacific up to the Pacific Islands.

00:17:29.527 --> 00:17:33.387
<v Chris Patterson>But, you know, if you take the EU, for example, and you're sitting in Brussels

00:17:33.387 --> 00:17:37.407
<v Chris Patterson>and you say, right, well, we're going to pass these laws, okay,

00:17:37.607 --> 00:17:41.247
<v Chris Patterson>here in Brussels for us as a country.

00:17:41.247 --> 00:17:47.727
<v Chris Patterson>But if your neighbour next to you isn't on the same page and they're just churning

00:17:47.727 --> 00:17:49.547
<v Chris Patterson>out emissions left, right and centre,

00:17:49.847 --> 00:17:59.447
<v Chris Patterson>then how can we ever think that we can make a significant change unless everyone's

00:17:59.447 --> 00:18:01.747
<v Chris Patterson>on board and that is the entire planet?

00:18:02.247 --> 00:18:05.007
<v Jessica Palairet>Good question. So on one level, you're right.

00:18:05.207 --> 00:18:09.147
<v Jessica Palairet>It's a global problem. And that's why we have the Paris Agreement,

00:18:09.327 --> 00:18:10.707
<v Jessica Palairet>Kyoto Protocol, UNECCCC. CCC.

00:18:11.027 --> 00:18:16.707
<v Jessica Palairet>So for decades, there's been global processes, diplomatic processes to get collaboration

00:18:16.707 --> 00:18:21.167
<v Jessica Palairet>between countries because one country can't fix this on their own and it's a global problem.

00:18:21.347 --> 00:18:24.567
<v Jessica Palairet>So the Paris Agreement was the landmark climate agreement,

00:18:25.067 --> 00:18:29.827
<v Jessica Palairet>signed a 10-year anniversary this year, and that's where almost all countries

00:18:29.827 --> 00:18:31.667
<v Jessica Palairet>around the world signed an agreement,

00:18:31.887 --> 00:18:35.467
<v Jessica Palairet>came together, acknowledged that climate change is a problem that requires a

00:18:35.467 --> 00:18:41.987
<v Jessica Palairet>global solution and agreed to limit temperature rise to well below two degrees and limit it to 1.5.

00:18:42.087 --> 00:18:43.787
<v Chris Patterson>Where does the United States sit on that?

00:18:44.127 --> 00:18:47.687
<v Jessica Palairet>Well, that's the thing. So the U.S. has pulled out of Paris.

00:18:48.087 --> 00:18:51.987
<v Jessica Palairet>There's still some action at a state level in the U.S. It was not completely hopeless.

00:18:52.677 --> 00:18:57.497
<v Jessica Palairet>But, you know, I think there's so many other aspects of the global economy that

00:18:57.497 --> 00:19:01.157
<v Jessica Palairet>are moving in the direction of climate action decarbonisation.

00:19:01.237 --> 00:19:05.997
<v Jessica Palairet>In some senses, I think it's really important to not let what the US has done

00:19:05.997 --> 00:19:10.817
<v Jessica Palairet>kind of throttle climate action worldwide. And it's really interesting that

00:19:10.817 --> 00:19:12.557
<v Jessica Palairet>you use the EU as an example.

00:19:12.837 --> 00:19:17.017
<v Jessica Palairet>I mean, it's pretty well established that the EU, their policies,

00:19:17.177 --> 00:19:20.057
<v Jessica Palairet>there's something called the Brussels effect, where often laws and policies

00:19:20.057 --> 00:19:25.837
<v Jessica Palairet>that are adopted in the European Union end up becoming laws and policies adopted all around the world.

00:19:26.097 --> 00:19:31.257
<v Jessica Palairet>And the EU is actually quite consciously, in my view, trying to put in place

00:19:31.257 --> 00:19:36.437
<v Jessica Palairet>laws and regulations that actually impact global trade and impact what other countries do.

00:19:36.717 --> 00:19:39.717
<v Jessica Palairet>So there's a couple of obvious examples of this. They're looking at bringing

00:19:39.717 --> 00:19:42.217
<v Jessica Palairet>in, or they have actually a carbon border tax adjustment.

00:19:42.477 --> 00:19:46.577
<v Jessica Palairet>So that's saying that if you want to import certain goods into the European

00:19:46.577 --> 00:19:48.837
<v Jessica Palairet>Union, And they have to meet certain emission standards.

00:19:49.057 --> 00:19:51.437
<v Jessica Palairet>So that's a pretty powerful regulatory tool.

00:19:52.017 --> 00:19:56.297
<v Jessica Palairet>Trade is the other really important aspect here. So we've got New Zealand,

00:19:56.337 --> 00:19:59.597
<v Jessica Palairet>a free trade agreement with the European Union.

00:19:59.777 --> 00:20:02.737
<v Jessica Palairet>And that includes a clause that says...

00:20:03.399 --> 00:20:08.099
<v Jessica Palairet>Both parties are committed to upholding the Paris Agreement and will effectively

00:20:08.099 --> 00:20:13.259
<v Jessica Palairet>implement it, and that is actually subject to dispute resolution clauses in the trade agreement.

00:20:13.439 --> 00:20:17.379
<v Jessica Palairet>It's actually the first trade agreement, in my knowledge, in the world to include

00:20:17.379 --> 00:20:22.219
<v Jessica Palairet>trade and sustainability clauses of a trade agreement in the dispute resolution

00:20:22.219 --> 00:20:24.199
<v Jessica Palairet>kind of part of that agreement.

00:20:24.479 --> 00:20:28.099
<v Jessica Palairet>And so there's a real question, say, for a country like New Zealand.

00:20:28.099 --> 00:20:31.879
<v Jessica Palairet>If we were to follow the lead of the US, if we were to pull out of Paris,

00:20:31.879 --> 00:20:36.679
<v Jessica Palairet>I think the trade consequences for us would be really serious.

00:20:36.679 --> 00:20:39.099
<v Jessica Palairet>We've got a similar trade agreement with the UK.

00:20:39.199 --> 00:20:44.599
<v Jessica Palairet>And I would think if New Zealand were to pull out, the EU, the UK would be pretty

00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:48.459
<v Jessica Palairet>interested in making an example of New Zealand to use these trade agreements

00:20:48.459 --> 00:20:52.259
<v Jessica Palairet>to say this is actually unacceptable. It's a global problem.

00:20:52.439 --> 00:20:56.979
<v Jessica Palairet>All countries, no matter what size, have a responsibility, especially developed

00:20:56.979 --> 00:20:58.459
<v Jessica Palairet>countries like New Zealand.

00:20:58.999 --> 00:21:05.099
<v Jessica Palairet>It's in our interest to continue moving to a low emissions future and incredibly

00:21:05.099 --> 00:21:07.179
<v Jessica Palairet>important from a global trading perspective.

00:21:07.699 --> 00:21:11.019
<v Chris Patterson>It is going to require some significant sacrifices though.

00:21:11.259 --> 00:21:16.559
<v Chris Patterson>I mean, perhaps it's unfair for me to say the elephant in the room,

00:21:16.639 --> 00:21:21.779
<v Chris Patterson>but the elephant in the room for climate change is the fact that as a species,

00:21:21.779 --> 00:21:33.399
<v Chris Patterson>Humans are addicted to oil because oil is the most efficient source of a high-level

00:21:33.399 --> 00:21:35.279
<v Chris Patterson>concentration of energy.

00:21:35.859 --> 00:21:42.059
<v Chris Patterson>And it's, relatively speaking, easy to acquire, and we haven't been able to

00:21:42.059 --> 00:21:45.999
<v Chris Patterson>figure out a way of transitioning beyond it.

00:21:45.999 --> 00:21:52.879
<v Chris Patterson>And those that use effectively fossil fuels have an advantage over those who

00:21:52.879 --> 00:21:56.799
<v Chris Patterson>are cutting back on them from an economic point of view and that runs the risk

00:21:56.799 --> 00:22:00.599
<v Chris Patterson>of creating effectively a two-lane world economy where you've got

00:22:01.328 --> 00:22:06.208
<v Chris Patterson>First world high polluters, the US and China, who aren't going to comply with

00:22:06.208 --> 00:22:11.048
<v Chris Patterson>these reduction strategies, are able to supercharge their economies and continue to do so.

00:22:11.268 --> 00:22:14.588
<v Chris Patterson>Because effectively, that's what the discovery and the use of oil did,

00:22:14.708 --> 00:22:19.088
<v Chris Patterson>is it supercharged economies and has continued to do so for over 150 years.

00:22:19.428 --> 00:22:22.688
<v Chris Patterson>And then there are those that are saying, well, we need to transition out of that.

00:22:22.848 --> 00:22:25.988
<v Chris Patterson>But to do that, those that are going to do it are going to make a bigger sacrifice

00:22:25.988 --> 00:22:32.828
<v Chris Patterson>and not necessarily see any meaningful change as long as those larger countries

00:22:32.828 --> 00:22:36.028
<v Chris Patterson>continue to burn fossil fuels.

00:22:36.328 --> 00:22:43.428
<v Chris Patterson>So how can the law here in New Zealand in any way combat that unless there is

00:22:43.428 --> 00:22:45.648
<v Chris Patterson>a united global approach to it?

00:22:45.788 --> 00:22:48.808
<v Chris Patterson>I guess in a way it's the same approach of saying, you know,

00:22:48.908 --> 00:22:52.048
<v Chris Patterson>a global approach to trying to outlaw and

00:22:52.048 --> 00:22:56.528
<v Chris Patterson>manage things like slavery child prostitution

00:22:56.528 --> 00:23:01.368
<v Chris Patterson>drug trafficking you know all of those things that we're able to say you know

00:23:01.368 --> 00:23:07.908
<v Chris Patterson>these things aren't good for us as a as a global community as a species but

00:23:07.908 --> 00:23:12.368
<v Chris Patterson>we're not really there when it comes to global emissions we're not all on board

00:23:12.368 --> 00:23:16.028
<v Chris Patterson>so so how can new zealand make a meaningful impact

00:23:16.839 --> 00:23:23.319
<v Jessica Palairet>Yeah, so I think, I don't think what you said at the start is actually quite accurate anymore.

00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:30.939
<v Jessica Palairet>So the amount of investment in renewables and clean energy is now outstripping

00:23:30.939 --> 00:23:31.979
<v Jessica Palairet>investment in fossil fuels.

00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:36.419
<v Jessica Palairet>And the idea that you need oil and fossil fuels in order to have a successful

00:23:36.419 --> 00:23:39.499
<v Jessica Palairet>and productive economic engine is just not true anymore.

00:23:39.499 --> 00:23:45.059
<v Jessica Palairet>And China is actually one of the leading global examples for an economy that

00:23:45.059 --> 00:23:49.859
<v Jessica Palairet>is powering up in renewables. It's not powering up in fossil fuels in the same way.

00:23:49.959 --> 00:23:55.599
<v Jessica Palairet>It is actively investing and growing its use of solar by quite an incredible degree.

00:23:55.739 --> 00:24:00.479
<v Jessica Palairet>And I think that as the price of renewables is just going down and down and

00:24:00.479 --> 00:24:04.859
<v Jessica Palairet>down, that's actually going to be an incredibly important part of the transition.

00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:09.939
<v Jessica Palairet>And here's the thing. I think that this idea that climate action requires sacrifice

00:24:09.939 --> 00:24:12.219
<v Jessica Palairet>is just not accurate anymore.

00:24:12.579 --> 00:24:17.099
<v Jessica Palairet>Sure, there's limits on planetary boundaries and limits to growth,

00:24:17.239 --> 00:24:21.779
<v Jessica Palairet>but the energy transition, that is really at the heart of what needs to happen

00:24:21.779 --> 00:24:23.079
<v Jessica Palairet>in terms of the climate transition.

00:24:23.259 --> 00:24:27.839
<v Jessica Palairet>And this idea that, say, New Zealand or countries need fossil fuels in order

00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:31.499
<v Jessica Palairet>to grow their economies is just not borne out by the evidence anymore.

00:24:31.499 --> 00:24:35.759
<v Jessica Palairet>That the idea of green growth, you actually do see, I think it's states like

00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:39.219
<v Jessica Palairet>California, have successfully managed to grow their economy while also reducing

00:24:39.219 --> 00:24:40.999
<v Jessica Palairet>emissions. It is possible.

00:24:41.079 --> 00:24:46.459
<v Jessica Palairet>If we were to better embrace renewable energy in New Zealand,

00:24:46.599 --> 00:24:51.219
<v Jessica Palairet>renewable electricity, what you actually see is better health outcomes.

00:24:51.719 --> 00:24:52.879
<v Jessica Palairet>Cheaper forms of transport.

00:24:53.099 --> 00:24:57.139
<v Jessica Palairet>EVs are an awful lot cheaper to run than a petrol car. You see cheaper energy

00:24:57.139 --> 00:25:00.179
<v Jessica Palairet>bills for Kiwi if you put solar panels on your home.

00:25:00.179 --> 00:25:05.599
<v Jessica Palairet>In Australia, the extent of solar panel rollout has been so incredible that

00:25:05.599 --> 00:25:09.699
<v Jessica Palairet>some people are actually earning money by sending their solar to the grid because

00:25:09.699 --> 00:25:13.559
<v Jessica Palairet>there's so much solar power that you end up having negative energy prices.

00:25:14.247 --> 00:25:18.227
<v Jessica Palairet>Like, it's just, you know, I think that the, in terms of the cost of the transition

00:25:18.227 --> 00:25:22.047
<v Jessica Palairet>being all about, it's all about sacrifice and we need to not care if you,

00:25:22.047 --> 00:25:23.907
<v Jessica Palairet>if you care about climate, you don't care about the economy.

00:25:23.967 --> 00:25:26.447
<v Jessica Palairet>And if we give up on oil, the global economy is going to tank.

00:25:27.027 --> 00:25:31.007
<v Jessica Palairet>America is the outlier. Donald Trump and his kind of idea about climate,

00:25:31.187 --> 00:25:32.787
<v Jessica Palairet>that's actually the outlier.

00:25:32.907 --> 00:25:38.007
<v Jessica Palairet>And I think the economics of climate is actually pointing in a much more positive

00:25:38.007 --> 00:25:40.827
<v Jessica Palairet>and prosperous and abundant future.

00:25:40.827 --> 00:25:44.107
<v Chris Patterson>Do you think, Jessica, on that, do you think that New Zealand,

00:25:44.327 --> 00:25:48.507
<v Chris Patterson>what we could do as a nation, picking up on what you've just said,

00:25:48.627 --> 00:25:54.407
<v Chris Patterson>is we could actually help prove that that's right? Exactly.

00:25:54.707 --> 00:26:00.887
<v Chris Patterson>That it can be done. You can transition away from fossil fuels and not have

00:26:00.887 --> 00:26:07.567
<v Chris Patterson>to make the sacrifices that the oil industry effectively suggests that we'd have to make.

00:26:07.567 --> 00:26:10.527
<v Chris Patterson>We'd have to go backwards, you know, roll us back into the Stone Age,

00:26:10.567 --> 00:26:11.707
<v Chris Patterson>you know, type scenario.

00:26:12.843 --> 00:26:17.643
<v Chris Patterson>For what it's worth, literally, as we are speaking, our electrician at home

00:26:17.643 --> 00:26:24.323
<v Chris Patterson>is installing our Chinese solar system, which is 25 panels, 450 watts each,

00:26:24.723 --> 00:26:27.363
<v Chris Patterson>you know, big 8kVA battery with an inverter.

00:26:27.703 --> 00:26:32.323
<v Chris Patterson>And we're also just about to sign up a contract to be able to sell some of our

00:26:32.323 --> 00:26:33.743
<v Chris Patterson>surplus energy back into the grid.

00:26:33.923 --> 00:26:37.383
<v Chris Patterson>We're not going to get paid a lot, but it doesn't matter. At least we're able

00:26:37.383 --> 00:26:40.963
<v Chris Patterson>to do that. just we're fortunate that we're actually in a house that's got three-phase

00:26:40.963 --> 00:26:44.123
<v Chris Patterson>power for the techies out there, if you know what that actually means.

00:26:44.403 --> 00:26:49.323
<v Chris Patterson>But yeah, so we're super excited. We don't get the switch doesn't get flipped till Wednesday.

00:26:49.583 --> 00:26:53.383
<v Chris Patterson>We have to get an inspector from the council to sign it all off.

00:26:53.523 --> 00:26:57.263
<v Chris Patterson>But we're excited and it's nice to move a bit more sustainably.

00:26:57.483 --> 00:27:02.863
<v Chris Patterson>And we're also starting to harvest water off our roof to help irrigate our backyard.

00:27:03.023 --> 00:27:05.583
<v Chris Patterson>So we're doing all of those things, which is all great.

00:27:05.863 --> 00:27:09.463
<v Chris Patterson>And look, I mean, you are right. I mean, you don't have to travel far in Auckland

00:27:09.463 --> 00:27:12.623
<v Chris Patterson>to Great Barrier where there is, you know, they're off the grid completely.

00:27:12.843 --> 00:27:16.203
<v Chris Patterson>There's no, everything's generated there. It's just, it's completely...

00:27:17.038 --> 00:27:19.918
<v Chris Patterson>I mean, to be fair, there's a few generators over there burning diesel,

00:27:20.098 --> 00:27:27.398
<v Chris Patterson>but put that aside, you know, you can actually move away from needing fossil fuels to a large extent.

00:27:27.638 --> 00:27:33.398
<v Chris Patterson>So and perhaps our laws need to be adjusted to make sure that we're able to

00:27:33.398 --> 00:27:36.578
<v Chris Patterson>prove that that can be done and get ready for the future because it has to be

00:27:36.578 --> 00:27:37.998
<v Chris Patterson>the future because otherwise we won't have one.

00:27:37.998 --> 00:27:43.958
<v Jessica Palairet>I mean, Rewiring Aotearoa is an awesome organisation advocating for some law

00:27:43.958 --> 00:27:48.538
<v Jessica Palairet>and policy reform to make it easier for people to install solar on their roofs

00:27:48.538 --> 00:27:52.678
<v Jessica Palairet>and looking at working with councils to make that happen and provide kind of

00:27:52.678 --> 00:27:54.738
<v Jessica Palairet>subsidies and payback schemes for that.

00:27:55.018 --> 00:27:59.338
<v Jessica Palairet>I think solar is such a good example about where you can do something that,

00:27:59.478 --> 00:28:00.418
<v Jessica Palairet>sure, reduces emissions.

00:28:00.418 --> 00:28:04.318
<v Jessica Palairet>But I'm sure the reason why you install it on your roof is because it's going to save you money.

00:28:04.318 --> 00:28:08.598
<v Jessica Palairet>And this thing where we're at in climate at the moment, in my view,

00:28:08.658 --> 00:28:13.138
<v Jessica Palairet>is a position where doing something that reduces emissions,

00:28:13.538 --> 00:28:17.978
<v Jessica Palairet>if that's actually better for your back pocket, if that's actually better for

00:28:17.978 --> 00:28:22.218
<v Jessica Palairet>the New Zealand economy, then you do that and the kind of climate benefits are almost secondary.

00:28:22.438 --> 00:28:25.158
<v Jessica Palairet>But that's the transition that we're seeing. That's the energy transition.

00:28:25.438 --> 00:28:31.438
<v Jessica Palairet>And I think you're right. New Zealand has an incredible opportunity to be global leaders on climate.

00:28:31.438 --> 00:28:36.598
<v Jessica Palairet>And I actually think that there's a risk that if we squander that opportunity,

00:28:36.638 --> 00:28:41.738
<v Jessica Palairet>if we continue taking backward steps, which we have been, particularly over

00:28:41.738 --> 00:28:43.238
<v Jessica Palairet>the last couple of years.

00:28:44.090 --> 00:28:48.050
<v Jessica Palairet>That's actually a real risk for New Zealand. It's a risk for New Zealand exporters.

00:28:48.310 --> 00:28:50.290
<v Jessica Palairet>And here's the other thing which I'd say.

00:28:50.650 --> 00:28:54.870
<v Jessica Palairet>We may be a small country, but what every country in the world does matters.

00:28:55.130 --> 00:28:59.870
<v Jessica Palairet>The global consensus on taking action on climate change actually relies on countries

00:28:59.870 --> 00:29:03.930
<v Jessica Palairet>like us to stand up an international fora and take a leadership position.

00:29:04.290 --> 00:29:05.750
<v Jessica Palairet>So what we do matters.

00:29:06.230 --> 00:29:10.210
<v Jessica Palairet>Making sure that we're still in the room, a constructive global participant

00:29:10.210 --> 00:29:13.030
<v Jessica Palairet>in international climate discussions, that's really important.

00:29:13.030 --> 00:29:15.370
<v Jessica Palairet>And it's also in our exporters' interests.

00:29:15.550 --> 00:29:20.450
<v Jessica Palairet>I mean, our tourism industry, our agricultural exports, they kind of rely on

00:29:20.450 --> 00:29:25.590
<v Jessica Palairet>a clean, green image. So if that starts to go, I do think that's a risk for New Zealand.

00:29:26.070 --> 00:29:29.630
<v Chris Patterson>I think our clean, green image has been going for quite some time.

00:29:29.750 --> 00:29:33.070
<v Chris Patterson>That's a personal view, but I'm totally 100% with you.

00:29:33.150 --> 00:29:37.250
<v Chris Patterson>I mean, tourism plays such an important part in our economy and we need to make

00:29:37.250 --> 00:29:39.230
<v Chris Patterson>sure that our law's just for that.

00:29:40.130 --> 00:29:43.310
<v Chris Patterson>Just thinking this through a little bit more and talking about laws,

00:29:43.590 --> 00:29:47.470
<v Chris Patterson>maybe I think as I was thinking about the solar we're putting on our house,

00:29:47.710 --> 00:29:54.230
<v Chris Patterson>the Healthy Homes legislation requires landlords to have some minimum requirements

00:29:54.230 --> 00:29:58.030
<v Chris Patterson>and standards to be met around insulation and heating and various other things.

00:29:58.290 --> 00:30:04.290
<v Chris Patterson>But it wouldn't be much of a jump to require, for example, our largest landlord,

00:30:04.770 --> 00:30:08.250
<v Chris Patterson>which is Kiaronga Ora, we used to be Housing New Zealand.

00:30:09.215 --> 00:30:13.115
<v Chris Patterson>When they're building all these houses, which, you know, they've been building

00:30:13.115 --> 00:30:17.735
<v Chris Patterson>tens of thousands of them in the last couple of decades and slowed down a little

00:30:17.735 --> 00:30:20.275
<v Chris Patterson>bit, but they'll pick up again because we've got a housing shortage.

00:30:20.955 --> 00:30:27.315
<v Chris Patterson>Is it actually so much cheaper when you're building a house to pre-wire it for

00:30:27.315 --> 00:30:29.935
<v Chris Patterson>solar than to retrospectively do it?

00:30:29.935 --> 00:30:37.215
<v Chris Patterson>And, you know, legislation could be passed requiring not only our largest landlord,

00:30:37.575 --> 00:30:39.235
<v Chris Patterson>which is owned by the taxpayer,

00:30:39.675 --> 00:30:43.595
<v Chris Patterson>funded by the taxpayer, but also developers to say, you know,

00:30:43.655 --> 00:30:44.755
<v Chris Patterson>when you're doing a development,

00:30:44.955 --> 00:30:48.235
<v Chris Patterson>you've got to pre-wire for solar so that it's easier for the,

00:30:48.375 --> 00:30:52.835
<v Chris Patterson>who's going to be the occupant if they want to put panels on there to do that,

00:30:52.995 --> 00:30:56.655
<v Chris Patterson>because it saves money. It also encourages people to do it.

00:30:57.035 --> 00:31:01.015
<v Chris Patterson>And because we've got an energy issue in New Zealand. We've got really high

00:31:01.015 --> 00:31:04.955
<v Chris Patterson>energy costs. Look, power isn't ever going to get cheaper, I can tell you this now.

00:31:05.035 --> 00:31:06.355
<v Jessica Palairet>Well, it will with renewables.

00:31:06.575 --> 00:31:12.615
<v Chris Patterson>Well, possibly, yeah, but, well, possibly, but that's got to come in the way

00:31:12.615 --> 00:31:14.395
<v Chris Patterson>of forward investment and all of that.

00:31:14.495 --> 00:31:17.855
<v Chris Patterson>But at the moment, you know, electricity is very expensive in New Zealand.

00:31:18.235 --> 00:31:20.515
<v Chris Patterson>You said that we're a small country, and I know what you mean.

00:31:21.235 --> 00:31:24.455
<v Chris Patterson>Population-wise, compared to many others, we have a small population,

00:31:24.455 --> 00:31:26.615
<v Chris Patterson>but we're not a small country geographically.

00:31:27.175 --> 00:31:31.255
<v Chris Patterson>I mean, we have the fourth largest economic fishery zone in the world, okay?

00:31:31.855 --> 00:31:38.335
<v Chris Patterson>You know, it takes, if you drive from one end of New Zealand to the other, it takes days, okay?

00:31:38.995 --> 00:31:43.295
<v Chris Patterson>We're a long, skinny country for people who don't know where New Zealand is and been here.

00:31:43.675 --> 00:31:46.475
<v Chris Patterson>But the problem that we've got from a generation point of view is that most

00:31:46.475 --> 00:31:49.355
<v Chris Patterson>of our renewables are all generated in the lower end of the South Island.

00:31:49.415 --> 00:31:51.415
<v Chris Patterson>We've got to transmit it all the way to the North Island and,

00:31:51.415 --> 00:31:54.255
<v Chris Patterson>of course, our biggest populations in the northern part of the North Island.

00:31:55.289 --> 00:31:59.889
<v Chris Patterson>That problem's not going to solve. But the great thing about renewables in terms

00:31:59.889 --> 00:32:04.389
<v Chris Patterson>of solar and wind in those generations is you can plant them in various places.

00:32:04.729 --> 00:32:09.109
<v Chris Patterson>Leading on to that, any view on nuclear power? Have you got a view on that?

00:32:09.309 --> 00:32:12.489
<v Jessica Palairet>We don't have an organisational position on nuclear power, actually.

00:32:12.629 --> 00:32:15.389
<v Jessica Palairet>So I'm probably not going to create one here on Mike.

00:32:15.509 --> 00:32:19.649
<v Jessica Palairet>I mean, our focus has been renewables and electrification in New Zealand.

00:32:19.649 --> 00:32:23.009
<v Jessica Palairet>And frankly, because the technology is here, and in many instances,

00:32:23.009 --> 00:32:25.809
<v Jessica Palairet>it's cheaper than fossil fuel technology.

00:32:26.049 --> 00:32:28.069
<v Jessica Palairet>So that's where our focus has been.

00:32:28.469 --> 00:32:31.629
<v Jessica Palairet>So I'm probably not going to make up our position on it.

00:32:32.009 --> 00:32:35.249
<v Chris Patterson>Do we need to simplify our laws somewhat?

00:32:35.409 --> 00:32:39.469
<v Chris Patterson>I'm thinking like the changes to the RMA, the Resource Management Act for fast

00:32:39.469 --> 00:32:45.229
<v Chris Patterson>tracking, to enable big solar farms to be able to get in place,

00:32:45.429 --> 00:32:50.349
<v Chris Patterson>cut through the red tape a lot easier. Is that a change in the law that could be advocated?

00:32:50.709 --> 00:32:55.249
<v Jessica Palairet>Well, the Fast Track Approvals Act that passed earlier this year did.

00:32:55.449 --> 00:32:59.969
<v Jessica Palairet>But one of the things that it did try to do was to make consenting for renewables easier.

00:33:00.209 --> 00:33:03.149
<v Jessica Palairet>It also made consenting for things like mining and denison easier.

00:33:03.469 --> 00:33:08.509
<v Jessica Palairet>And that's the kind of thing which I think is unnecessary and unhelpful and

00:33:08.509 --> 00:33:10.149
<v Jessica Palairet>actually very harmful for New Zealand.

00:33:10.369 --> 00:33:14.109
<v Jessica Palairet>So had it just been a piece of legislation about fast tracking renewables,

00:33:14.289 --> 00:33:17.149
<v Jessica Palairet>you may have had Lawyers for Climate Action support on it. It's the fact that

00:33:17.149 --> 00:33:19.249
<v Jessica Palairet>it was fast-tracking, a whole heap of other stuff, which...

00:33:20.342 --> 00:33:23.042
<v Jessica Palairet>In our view, doesn't take New Zealand towards a low emissions economy,

00:33:23.262 --> 00:33:27.402
<v Jessica Palairet>doesn't set us up to hit our climate targets and meet our international legal obligations.

00:33:27.862 --> 00:33:33.942
<v Jessica Palairet>But I mean, my view is we need to do as much as we can to expand renewables

00:33:33.942 --> 00:33:35.782
<v Jessica Palairet>and electrification in New Zealand.

00:33:35.982 --> 00:33:39.322
<v Jessica Palairet>Your point about tenancies is really interesting because one of the challenges

00:33:39.322 --> 00:33:43.962
<v Jessica Palairet>we have is if you own your own home and you can afford the initial outlay,

00:33:44.082 --> 00:33:48.942
<v Jessica Palairet>which is pretty significant to be fair, some banks are now offering zero or

00:33:48.942 --> 00:33:52.142
<v Jessica Palairet>1% loans to support people with that initial upfront cost.

00:33:52.262 --> 00:33:55.422
<v Jessica Palairet>But it is an initial upfront cost that a lot of people can't meet.

00:33:55.702 --> 00:33:59.122
<v Jessica Palairet>And then the problem is the incentive actually isn't really on the landlord

00:33:59.122 --> 00:34:02.442
<v Jessica Palairet>to install solar because they don't get the benefit from the cheaper power costs.

00:34:02.882 --> 00:34:07.042
<v Jessica Palairet>Tenants get that benefit. So I think that from a kind of policy perspective,

00:34:07.042 --> 00:34:09.602
<v Jessica Palairet>there's quite a lot of work that's got to be done because I think it would be

00:34:09.602 --> 00:34:12.462
<v Jessica Palairet>a really bad situation for a whole heap of people,

00:34:12.982 --> 00:34:15.242
<v Jessica Palairet>you know, lawyers that can afford the upfront cost of solar,

00:34:15.242 --> 00:34:18.282
<v Jessica Palairet>put that on their homes and get the benefit of cheaper power costs.

00:34:18.442 --> 00:34:23.202
<v Jessica Palairet>And then you have, you know, tenants, people that can't afford to buy their own homes.

00:34:23.442 --> 00:34:27.122
<v Jessica Palairet>Their landlord's not putting solar panels on it. I think there could be a real equity issue there.

00:34:27.502 --> 00:34:30.382
<v Chris Patterson>100%, I totally agree. And that's why I mentioned Kiyanga Ora.

00:34:30.682 --> 00:34:36.822
<v Chris Patterson>You know, I mean, they're the state provider of housing. And so why can't they put solar panels on?

00:34:36.822 --> 00:34:38.982
<v Jessica Palairet>I think it'd be a great idea for Kiyanga Ora to do that.

00:34:39.482 --> 00:34:43.782
<v Chris Patterson>Now, look, you mentioned Deniston. For listeners, they may not know what your

00:34:43.782 --> 00:34:48.762
<v Chris Patterson>reference is there. Deniston's an area on Westland, on the west coast of the South Island.

00:34:48.902 --> 00:34:55.222
<v Chris Patterson>It's been a mining area for well over 100 years, you know, 150 years.

00:34:55.742 --> 00:35:00.262
<v Chris Patterson>What's the legal position? Like, you know, when we can talk about reducing our

00:35:00.262 --> 00:35:04.402
<v Chris Patterson>emissions, I mean, I guess in my mind, because I don't know enough about this

00:35:04.402 --> 00:35:08.442
<v Chris Patterson>area, we're talking about, okay, we've got a, we'll take Huntley,

00:35:08.562 --> 00:35:10.422
<v Chris Patterson>it's a coal-fired power station.

00:35:12.262 --> 00:35:17.182
<v Chris Patterson>We pull some coal out of the ground we throw it into that coal powered power

00:35:17.182 --> 00:35:21.042
<v Chris Patterson>station there's a couple of big smokestacks there you can literally see the

00:35:21.042 --> 00:35:22.802
<v Chris Patterson>emissions going out the top

00:35:23.772 --> 00:35:27.832
<v Chris Patterson>And we can pass laws to say we're going to reduce what we're doing in that area.

00:35:28.032 --> 00:35:34.552
<v Chris Patterson>But what about when mining companies are pulling coal out of the ground in Deniston or anywhere else,

00:35:34.692 --> 00:35:39.652
<v Chris Patterson>and they're then exporting it to China, and the Chinese are using that coal

00:35:39.652 --> 00:35:44.032
<v Chris Patterson>for their steel mills, because the coal that comes out of Deniston is really

00:35:44.032 --> 00:35:47.312
<v Chris Patterson>high quality and the Chinese pay a lot of money for it.

00:35:47.492 --> 00:35:51.512
<v Chris Patterson>But of course, that coal ends up as emissions, but it just happens to be going

00:35:51.512 --> 00:35:54.552
<v Chris Patterson>out of smokestacks in China rather than here in New Zealand.

00:35:54.752 --> 00:35:58.952
<v Chris Patterson>You know, does that affect our emissions target when we're exporting effectively

00:35:58.952 --> 00:36:01.372
<v Chris Patterson>the pollution? How does that work?

00:36:01.812 --> 00:36:05.332
<v Jessica Palairet>I think it's a simple answer. My understanding is the answer is no,

00:36:05.472 --> 00:36:08.172
<v Jessica Palairet>that doesn't count as part of New Zealand's emissions reporting.

00:36:08.452 --> 00:36:10.032
<v Jessica Palairet>But again, it doesn't mean that it's

00:36:10.032 --> 00:36:13.472
<v Jessica Palairet>the kind of industry that New Zealand necessarily should be supporting.

00:36:13.592 --> 00:36:18.192
<v Jessica Palairet>And one of the controversies about the Fast Track Approvals Act is that it allowed

00:36:18.192 --> 00:36:22.972
<v Jessica Palairet>projects which had gone through robust environmental impact,

00:36:22.972 --> 00:36:24.532
<v Jessica Palairet>assessments and where there had been,

00:36:24.752 --> 00:36:27.372
<v Jessica Palairet>you know, and I don't know if this was the case for Zenithson on the top of

00:36:27.372 --> 00:36:32.112
<v Jessica Palairet>my head, but certainly some projects, you know, you'd had courts say that this

00:36:32.112 --> 00:36:36.212
<v Jessica Palairet>project doesn't meet, you know, legal tests X, Y and Z and shouldn't proceed.

00:36:36.212 --> 00:36:39.352
<v Jessica Palairet>And then the Fast Track Approvals Act kind of overrides those processes.

00:36:39.772 --> 00:36:42.892
<v Jessica Palairet>Here's what I'll say about New Zealand's emissions, though, because it's all about.

00:36:43.532 --> 00:36:46.732
<v Chris Patterson>You know, emissions policy and climate policy,

00:36:46.852 --> 00:36:52.252
<v Jessica Palairet>It's all about choices. And our concern is that New Zealand is taking an approach

00:36:52.252 --> 00:36:56.632
<v Jessica Palairet>and making the choice that we should try to do the minimum that we can.

00:36:56.932 --> 00:37:00.032
<v Jessica Palairet>Minimum viable option and get away with doing as least as we can.

00:37:00.532 --> 00:37:05.092
<v Jessica Palairet>And our view is, one, in many instances, that's unlawful.

00:37:05.212 --> 00:37:08.952
<v Jessica Palairet>You need to think more critically about climate change and decisions.

00:37:09.232 --> 00:37:11.872
<v Jessica Palairet>And two, then it's also that missed opportunity we spoke about before.

00:37:11.872 --> 00:37:15.852
<v Jessica Palairet>You're missing the opportunity. to, you know, help people put solar on their

00:37:15.852 --> 00:37:18.652
<v Jessica Palairet>homes and have cheaper energy prices. You're missing the opportunity to have

00:37:18.652 --> 00:37:22.532
<v Jessica Palairet>better public transport and walking and cycling routes and kind of better qualities of life.

00:37:22.592 --> 00:37:26.332
<v Jessica Palairet>You're missing the opportunity to try and improve marine life in the Hauraki Gulf.

00:37:26.732 --> 00:37:31.152
<v Jessica Palairet>And so what we're doing at Lawyers for Climate Action, in addition to kind of

00:37:31.152 --> 00:37:35.352
<v Jessica Palairet>advocacy at the legal level, you know, what are our laws and our policies,

00:37:35.632 --> 00:37:38.752
<v Jessica Palairet>as I said at the start, we view one of our roles to say,

00:37:39.332 --> 00:37:45.752
<v Jessica Palairet>Well, it's all very well having laws in place, but you have to actually enforce

00:37:45.752 --> 00:37:47.472
<v Jessica Palairet>those laws for those to mean anything.

00:37:47.792 --> 00:37:51.912
<v Jessica Palairet>So a challenge that we brought earlier this year, about a couple of months ago

00:37:51.912 --> 00:37:55.932
<v Jessica Palairet>now, was the first ever legal challenge to New Zealand's emissions reduction plan.

00:37:56.112 --> 00:37:59.892
<v Jessica Palairet>So stepping back, we've got actually a really good climate framework law,

00:37:59.992 --> 00:38:01.092
<v Jessica Palairet>one of the best in the world.

00:38:01.352 --> 00:38:05.292
<v Jessica Palairet>It's kind of colloquially known as the Zero Carbon Act, but it was introduced

00:38:05.292 --> 00:38:09.272
<v Jessica Palairet>back in 2021. and it set out climate targets.

00:38:09.812 --> 00:38:13.652
<v Chris Patterson>No, I think it was 2019, but came into effect in 2021. Yeah.

00:38:14.052 --> 00:38:17.692
<v Jessica Palairet>So it set out climate targets, a 2050 target.

00:38:17.972 --> 00:38:21.432
<v Jessica Palairet>It set out a process of emissions budgets, which are like five yearly stepping

00:38:21.432 --> 00:38:25.332
<v Jessica Palairet>stones to meeting that target. And each budget has to be backed up by plan.

00:38:25.512 --> 00:38:29.392
<v Jessica Palairet>So multi-sector policies and strategies for meeting each budget.

00:38:29.932 --> 00:38:33.172
<v Jessica Palairet>And it also created an independent climate commission who monitors progress

00:38:33.172 --> 00:38:36.652
<v Jessica Palairet>and provides independent expert advice to the Minister for Climate Change.

00:38:37.384 --> 00:38:39.064
<v Chris Patterson>And a couple of months ago,

00:38:39.204 --> 00:38:43.044
<v Jessica Palairet>Along with our friends at another organisation called ELI, we have brought New

00:38:43.044 --> 00:38:46.784
<v Jessica Palairet>Zealand's first challenge to an emissions reduction plan. We've said that what

00:38:46.784 --> 00:38:49.644
<v Jessica Palairet>the government's put forward is unlawful.

00:38:49.744 --> 00:38:53.284
<v Jessica Palairet>It doesn't meet the legal requirements under that Act. It's very high risk.

00:38:53.504 --> 00:38:56.444
<v Jessica Palairet>Well, there's two aspects to it. One is the kind of plan moving forward,

00:38:56.544 --> 00:38:57.844
<v Jessica Palairet>which is our plan up to 2030.

00:38:58.204 --> 00:39:03.504
<v Jessica Palairet>It relies incredibly heavily on New Zealand planting pine trees and continuing

00:39:03.504 --> 00:39:07.264
<v Jessica Palairet>to plant pine trees well beyond 2050 in order to meet our target.

00:39:07.784 --> 00:39:11.544
<v Jessica Palairet>We're saying that's an unlawful approach. The government also just procedurally

00:39:11.544 --> 00:39:14.884
<v Jessica Palairet>didn't consider all the risks that that really presents for New Zealand,

00:39:15.004 --> 00:39:18.284
<v Jessica Palairet>didn't really think, well, where are the trees going to go? Is that land suitable?

00:39:18.444 --> 00:39:22.404
<v Jessica Palairet>What are we going to do past 2050 if we just have to continually plant pine

00:39:22.404 --> 00:39:23.984
<v Jessica Palairet>trees to offset our emissions?

00:39:24.644 --> 00:39:28.684
<v Jessica Palairet>What does that mean beyond 2050? We can't see any evidence that the government considered that.

00:39:28.844 --> 00:39:33.364
<v Jessica Palairet>So that's one aspect of the challenge. In our view, the plan and when you actually

00:39:33.364 --> 00:39:35.824
<v Jessica Palairet>delve into the risk modelling behind the plan,

00:39:36.502 --> 00:39:39.622
<v Jessica Palairet>the chances of us meeting our target is little more than a coin toss.

00:39:39.902 --> 00:39:42.022
<v Jessica Palairet>And we don't think that's lawful.

00:39:42.242 --> 00:39:45.242
<v Chris Patterson>Can I just check this by an analogy?

00:39:45.942 --> 00:39:49.262
<v Chris Patterson>I thought of this one. Is it a bit like saying, okay, I've got a policy.

00:39:49.402 --> 00:39:51.322
<v Chris Patterson>I'm going to reduce the amount of sugar that I have every day.

00:39:51.522 --> 00:39:55.442
<v Chris Patterson>Well, actually, I'm just not going to reduce the sugar. I'm just going to do more exercise.

00:39:55.642 --> 00:40:00.502
<v Jessica Palairet>Yes. Yes. And then imagine saying, and I'm only going to guarantee that I'm

00:40:00.502 --> 00:40:05.822
<v Jessica Palairet>going to be able to do that, well, you know, just a little bit better than 50-50.

00:40:05.822 --> 00:40:08.582
<v Jessica Palairet>I'm actually going to hit my healthy eating target.

00:40:08.742 --> 00:40:11.762
<v Chris Patterson>So the government, to an extent, are actually trying to bypass,

00:40:12.002 --> 00:40:18.282
<v Chris Patterson>you're saying, their obligations under the Zero Carbon Act by just going,

00:40:18.462 --> 00:40:19.782
<v Chris Patterson>we'll just plant more trees.

00:40:19.782 --> 00:40:24.242
<v Chris Patterson>We'll continue being an emitter, and the way that we'll combat that is we'll

00:40:24.242 --> 00:40:26.342
<v Chris Patterson>just plant more trees to try and meet that requirement.

00:40:26.522 --> 00:40:29.962
<v Jessica Palairet>That's what we're arguing. So the government obviously refutes that. And, I mean,

00:40:30.622 --> 00:40:34.822
<v Jessica Palairet>New Zealand will reduce its emissions a little bit, but most of our emissions

00:40:34.822 --> 00:40:38.622
<v Jessica Palairet>reductions kind of coming through what's called an emissions baseline which

00:40:38.622 --> 00:40:41.762
<v Jessica Palairet>is 95% of the emissions reductions out to 2030,

00:40:42.942 --> 00:40:46.322
<v Jessica Palairet>are not due to any government specific policies in

00:40:46.322 --> 00:40:49.442
<v Jessica Palairet>the plan they're just due to kind of underlying policies and

00:40:49.442 --> 00:40:54.202
<v Jessica Palairet>kind of things continuing as per and our kind of at the heart of our argument

00:40:54.202 --> 00:40:57.742
<v Jessica Palairet>is you've got to take a less risky approach I mean we said out at the start

00:40:57.742 --> 00:41:01.802
<v Jessica Palairet>of this interview all of the risks and realities of what climate change means

00:41:01.802 --> 00:41:06.462
<v Jessica Palairet>and you read out that fantastic article about what it means for our marine life in New Zealand.

00:41:07.092 --> 00:41:12.092
<v Chris Patterson>Look at all those risks, then go, you have to take a precautionary approach.

00:41:12.252 --> 00:41:13.932
<v Chris Patterson>You've got to follow best available science.

00:41:14.192 --> 00:41:17.292
<v Jessica Palairet>You've got to, under the International Court of Justice, advisory opinion out

00:41:17.292 --> 00:41:19.572
<v Jessica Palairet>the other week. You've got to do the utmost.

00:41:19.872 --> 00:41:23.512
<v Jessica Palairet>And this government and this plan, we just don't think is doing that.

00:41:23.732 --> 00:41:27.112
<v Jessica Palairet>The other aspect that we're challenging is actually to the first emissions reduction

00:41:27.112 --> 00:41:28.672
<v Jessica Palairet>plan that ends this year.

00:41:28.812 --> 00:41:32.532
<v Jessica Palairet>And the challenge we've got that we're bringing there is that the way the government,

00:41:32.772 --> 00:41:37.272
<v Jessica Palairet>after it was elected, scrapped about 35 climate policies. We say that was unlegal.

00:41:37.372 --> 00:41:39.892
<v Jessica Palairet>So this is pretty straight judicial review, procedural.

00:41:40.252 --> 00:41:44.252
<v Jessica Palairet>The Act says you had to consult before you made significant changes to the plan.

00:41:44.732 --> 00:41:47.752
<v Jessica Palairet>Government didn't do that. And so the essence of that, what we're trying to

00:41:47.752 --> 00:41:49.412
<v Jessica Palairet>do is actually establish a precedent.

00:41:49.612 --> 00:41:53.152
<v Jessica Palairet>So if you're a new government, of course you're able to change climate policy

00:41:53.152 --> 00:41:54.412
<v Jessica Palairet>and change a plan if you want.

00:41:54.572 --> 00:42:01.632
<v Jessica Palairet>But what our Climate Framework Act set out to do, and this Act was passed with cross-party support.

00:42:01.812 --> 00:42:05.412
<v Jessica Palairet>David Seymour, who at that point was the only member of the Act Party in Parliament,

00:42:05.412 --> 00:42:08.892
<v Jessica Palairet>He's the only person, he didn't even vote against it. He just wasn't there during the vote.

00:42:09.112 --> 00:42:11.912
<v Jessica Palairet>Everybody else voted for it. Pretty remarkable.

00:42:12.252 --> 00:42:17.012
<v Jessica Palairet>But it intended and aimed to set out consistent cross-party,

00:42:17.292 --> 00:42:18.752
<v Jessica Palairet>long-term climate planning.

00:42:19.052 --> 00:42:24.292
<v Jessica Palairet>Our view is that coming in and just scrapping policies and doing huge 180s in

00:42:24.292 --> 00:42:25.312
<v Jessica Palairet>terms of climate policy.

00:42:26.069 --> 00:42:31.929
<v Jessica Palairet>Undermines investor confidence, stability and certainty in government direction

00:42:31.929 --> 00:42:33.269
<v Jessica Palairet>is not what the Act allowed.

00:42:33.289 --> 00:42:36.809
<v Jessica Palairet>So that's the other part that we're seeking a judicial review of.

00:42:37.489 --> 00:42:42.529
<v Chris Patterson>Okay, so judicial review is a fantastic tool that can be used to ensure that

00:42:42.529 --> 00:42:45.809
<v Chris Patterson>governments are kept on a checks and balances basis.

00:42:46.269 --> 00:42:50.369
<v Chris Patterson>Absolutely, and I think it's fantastic that Lawyers for Climate Action,

00:42:50.449 --> 00:42:55.589
<v Chris Patterson>etc., and others are putting a bit of attention into that.

00:42:56.069 --> 00:43:00.569
<v Chris Patterson>Is there an opportunity or a role to play in other areas of our law?

00:43:00.769 --> 00:43:05.069
<v Chris Patterson>Like I'm thinking, for example, the law of torts, our torts law.

00:43:05.529 --> 00:43:11.929
<v Chris Patterson>You know, there's a long history of where law can provide a remedial response

00:43:11.929 --> 00:43:18.129
<v Chris Patterson>and solution when resources aren't being used, let's say, properly.

00:43:18.669 --> 00:43:23.609
<v Chris Patterson>I just think of one like asbestos. I mean, asbestos used to be like a major

00:43:23.609 --> 00:43:26.709
<v Chris Patterson>component resource in construction and building.

00:43:27.049 --> 00:43:31.609
<v Chris Patterson>And whilst we don't have personal injury litigation to the extent that they do in Australia,

00:43:31.989 --> 00:43:37.529
<v Chris Patterson>certainly as people started realising that actually this product can make you very unwell,

00:43:37.849 --> 00:43:43.129
<v Chris Patterson>the law was used effectively as a tool for change to make sure that,

00:43:43.169 --> 00:43:47.529
<v Chris Patterson>you know, those sorts of products weren't putting people's health and wellbeing at risk.

00:43:47.529 --> 00:43:52.489
<v Chris Patterson>I mean, could we look to the law, you know, to tort law to say,

00:43:52.749 --> 00:44:00.589
<v Chris Patterson>hey, the science proves that climate change isn't good for us as a species, as humans.

00:44:01.049 --> 00:44:04.549
<v Chris Patterson>And we should be able to say, you know, they're the ones that are polluting,

00:44:04.769 --> 00:44:06.209
<v Chris Patterson>you know, point to defendants.

00:44:06.349 --> 00:44:13.509
<v Chris Patterson>And you can think of some just that are large emitters and say they're polluting

00:44:13.509 --> 00:44:16.589
<v Chris Patterson>our environment and the law should stop them from doing it.

00:44:16.589 --> 00:44:19.289
<v Jessica Palairet>Really good question. And actually,

00:44:19.569 --> 00:44:22.309
<v Jessica Palairet>that challenge is currently moving through the New Zealand courts.

00:44:22.709 --> 00:44:28.149
<v Jessica Palairet>So, Iwi leader Mike Smith, he's chair of the Iwi chairs forum,

00:44:28.860 --> 00:44:35.300
<v Jessica Palairet>And he has brought a landmark challenge against seven of New Zealand's largest

00:44:35.300 --> 00:44:38.520
<v Jessica Palairet>emitting companies, together responsible for, he says, around a third of New

00:44:38.520 --> 00:44:42.240
<v Jessica Palairet>Zealand's emissions, arguing that they should be held liable under tort for

00:44:42.240 --> 00:44:43.340
<v Jessica Palairet>the harms of their emission.

00:44:43.560 --> 00:44:47.660
<v Jessica Palairet>And it's been a pretty remarkable case. I mean, he's arguing under negligence,

00:44:47.800 --> 00:44:52.380
<v Jessica Palairet>under nuisance, and then a new tortious cause of action, like climate harms tort.

00:44:52.660 --> 00:44:58.280
<v Jessica Palairet>His case was partially struck out in the High Court, completely struck out in the Court of Appeal.

00:44:58.280 --> 00:45:02.980
<v Jessica Palairet>And then unanimously allowed to proceed by the Supreme Court,

00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:08.180
<v Jessica Palairet>who really applied pretty orthodox principles around strikeout.

00:45:08.320 --> 00:45:10.840
<v Jessica Palairet>I mean, the threshold is really high. In order to strike out a proceeding,

00:45:10.980 --> 00:45:13.340
<v Jessica Palairet>you have to show there's no arguable case.

00:45:13.580 --> 00:45:18.060
<v Jessica Palairet>The Supreme Court said there is an arguable case. The law should be able to

00:45:18.060 --> 00:45:23.060
<v Jessica Palairet>develop with the benefit of full evidence and a full hearing rather than on

00:45:23.060 --> 00:45:28.520
<v Jessica Palairet>the barren rocks of a strikeout proceeding. I think the quote that they gave was along those lines.

00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:33.880
<v Jessica Palairet>And really, they looked at, you know, the development of tort law in response

00:45:33.880 --> 00:45:36.600
<v Jessica Palairet>to the Industrial Revolution and said the law actually...

00:45:37.583 --> 00:45:41.903
<v Chris Patterson>Doesn't necessarily need to stay static in response to the huge challenges presented

00:45:41.903 --> 00:45:45.183
<v Chris Patterson>by climate change. We should be able to test this out,

00:45:45.303 --> 00:45:47.123
<v Jessica Palairet>See how principles of causation might

00:45:47.123 --> 00:45:50.863
<v Jessica Palairet>apply. But then one of the other big questions in that case, of course,

00:45:51.023 --> 00:45:55.923
<v Jessica Palairet>was to what extent can the common law develop versus is this a polycentric,

00:45:55.923 --> 00:46:01.583
<v Jessica Palairet>super complicated issue that Parliament needs to legislate and regulate?

00:46:01.823 --> 00:46:05.643
<v Jessica Palairet>And again, the court said the Climate Change Response Act I spoke about earlier,

00:46:06.743 --> 00:46:12.003
<v Jessica Palairet>the regulations and laws set by Parliament don't oust the role of common law

00:46:12.003 --> 00:46:14.263
<v Jessica Palairet>and should be given a chance to develop.

00:46:14.503 --> 00:46:17.983
<v Jessica Palairet>So it's a really exciting and actually world-leading case.

00:46:18.403 --> 00:46:22.083
<v Jessica Palairet>We played a very small role in it. We played as intervener in the Supreme Court,

00:46:22.163 --> 00:46:25.483
<v Jessica Palairet>but it's been run by, to my knowledge, pro bono lawyers.

00:46:25.843 --> 00:46:30.283
<v Jessica Palairet>Lee Salmon Long doing an amazing job on that case. And it's really kind of David

00:46:30.283 --> 00:46:32.023
<v Jessica Palairet>and Goliath kind of case.

00:46:32.183 --> 00:46:34.903
<v Jessica Palairet>You know, seven of New Zealand's largest companies up against Mike.

00:46:34.903 --> 00:46:39.243
<v Jessica Palairet>And I think that's going to be a fascinating development and my understanding

00:46:39.243 --> 00:46:42.543
<v Jessica Palairet>is it's going to court the first half of 2027.

00:46:43.063 --> 00:46:47.303
<v Chris Patterson>Yeah, now you've reminded me that there's a fascinating book written by an Oxford

00:46:47.303 --> 00:46:50.003
<v Chris Patterson>professor called Robert Stevens.

00:46:50.483 --> 00:46:55.723
<v Chris Patterson>I can't remember when it was published, maybe 10 years ago, called Torts and Rights.

00:46:56.523 --> 00:47:01.103
<v Chris Patterson>He's got a really interesting idea in there in terms of the development of tort

00:47:01.103 --> 00:47:09.743
<v Chris Patterson>law and saying, you know, maybe we need to re-look at, like fundamentally re-look at tort law.

00:47:10.143 --> 00:47:12.803
<v Chris Patterson>And rather than going, well,

00:47:14.033 --> 00:47:17.413
<v Chris Patterson>It only activates if there's a loss.

00:47:18.433 --> 00:47:22.813
<v Chris Patterson>Otherwise, tort law provides no remedy at all.

00:47:23.893 --> 00:47:28.233
<v Chris Patterson>That we actually really maybe need to go, actually, there are certain rights.

00:47:28.493 --> 00:47:31.513
<v Chris Patterson>I mean, I'll use an example for listeners.

00:47:32.093 --> 00:47:37.273
<v Chris Patterson>If you're a landowner and you've got a beautiful piece of land and you have

00:47:37.273 --> 00:47:41.593
<v Chris Patterson>people walking across it, under tort law, you can say, oh, well,

00:47:41.733 --> 00:47:46.893
<v Chris Patterson>I've got this right to prevent you from coming onto my land. You're trespassing.

00:47:48.053 --> 00:47:52.813
<v Chris Patterson>But the law's response to that is to say, well, what's the loss?

00:47:53.533 --> 00:48:00.453
<v Chris Patterson>And then you get into this whole problem of proving loss. And it's a flaw in our legal system.

00:48:01.233 --> 00:48:07.773
<v Chris Patterson>Why couldn't we say, if we take the tort of nuisance with environmental impact

00:48:07.773 --> 00:48:11.153
<v Chris Patterson>and say these emitters are creating a nuisance,

00:48:11.713 --> 00:48:17.573
<v Chris Patterson>we shouldn't have to prove any direct loss or all we have to do is show that they're contributing.

00:48:17.933 --> 00:48:21.093
<v Chris Patterson>We don't have to show that they are the contributor, they're just contributing.

00:48:21.433 --> 00:48:28.293
<v Chris Patterson>Because we've got a right to be able to exist in an environment that's free of pollution.

00:48:29.073 --> 00:48:34.573
<v Chris Patterson>They don't have the right to contribute to destroying our environment.

00:48:34.573 --> 00:48:40.773
<v Chris Patterson>But it would require a fundamental shift in the way in which we see the law of torts

00:48:41.815 --> 00:48:46.455
<v Jessica Palairet>Well, I think there's a distinction I'd make between loss and harm.

00:48:46.535 --> 00:48:48.655
<v Jessica Palairet>And I think that's an important one.

00:48:48.995 --> 00:48:52.715
<v Jessica Palairet>I mean, one of the challenges, other challenges, and you see this in climate litigation globally.

00:48:53.435 --> 00:48:57.515
<v Jessica Palairet>I mean, there's now over 3,000 climate litigation cases, only a handful of tort-based

00:48:57.515 --> 00:49:00.655
<v Jessica Palairet>cases, right? Which is why the New Zealand case is so significant.

00:49:01.095 --> 00:49:05.055
<v Jessica Palairet>But one of the big issues is causation. How can you draw a line between,

00:49:05.055 --> 00:49:09.675
<v Jessica Palairet>you know, Montero's emissions and sea level rise in Mike's community?

00:49:10.295 --> 00:49:13.175
<v Jessica Palairet>And there's increasing science being able to draw that line.

00:49:13.295 --> 00:49:15.395
<v Jessica Palairet>But even then, I think the focus...

00:49:15.843 --> 00:49:19.303
<v Jessica Palairet>Maybe has to be a bit more on harm than loss necessarily.

00:49:19.703 --> 00:49:23.583
<v Jessica Palairet>And there's also two aspects to it. So there's one is their liability and then

00:49:23.583 --> 00:49:25.763
<v Jessica Palairet>two, you know, what's the remedy?

00:49:26.103 --> 00:49:30.523
<v Jessica Palairet>And in my mind, in the Smith and Pontera proceedings, those are two different,

00:49:30.883 --> 00:49:34.263
<v Jessica Palairet>well, obviously they're two different questions, but they're two very important

00:49:34.263 --> 00:49:36.583
<v Jessica Palairet>questions. And I think it would still be a victory.

00:49:36.743 --> 00:49:39.663
<v Jessica Palairet>And I mean, I'm not on the team, so this is just my view.

00:49:39.763 --> 00:49:42.383
<v Jessica Palairet>But I think it would be a victory if you could have a finding on liability.

00:49:42.383 --> 00:49:47.283
<v Jessica Palairet>I think it is pretty hard to get a finding on remedy. Like, what do you do about it?

00:49:47.403 --> 00:49:51.803
<v Jessica Palairet>But even just defining on liability, I think, would be quite extraordinary and

00:49:51.803 --> 00:49:53.863
<v Jessica Palairet>seems eminently possible.

00:49:55.103 --> 00:49:58.363
<v Chris Patterson>Well, I guess this is the issue.

00:49:59.063 --> 00:50:07.043
<v Chris Patterson>Our law will provide a remedial response or respond to someone polluting our property.

00:50:07.043 --> 00:50:12.843
<v Chris Patterson>If we own a land and there's a stream running through it that we use that stream

00:50:12.843 --> 00:50:17.483
<v Chris Patterson>and someone up the stream is polluting it, you know, the law will provide that response.

00:50:17.743 --> 00:50:23.423
<v Chris Patterson>But we seem to have this scenario where polluting the air that we all have to

00:50:23.423 --> 00:50:28.923
<v Chris Patterson>breathe and, you know, the reliance on, you know, the environment to protect

00:50:28.923 --> 00:50:31.663
<v Chris Patterson>us from harmful sun rays like the ozone layer, etc.

00:50:31.663 --> 00:50:39.703
<v Chris Patterson>That somehow it's the law to sit back and let that damage be done and we just

00:50:39.703 --> 00:50:42.563
<v Chris Patterson>have to accept that, that that's just part of it.

00:50:42.723 --> 00:50:46.943
<v Chris Patterson>And then often the emitters that are emitting, they're emitting for a profit motive.

00:50:47.123 --> 00:50:51.803
<v Chris Patterson>They're doing it to line the pockets of the shareholders that they are there.

00:50:51.803 --> 00:50:58.823
<v Chris Patterson>So there's a real conflict between neoliberal economics and the ability for

00:50:58.823 --> 00:51:01.083
<v Chris Patterson>us as a species to be able to

00:51:02.799 --> 00:51:03.819
<v Chris Patterson>I mean, we've got to live somewhere.

00:51:04.019 --> 00:51:07.099
<v Jessica Palairet>Yeah, well, and it's hard. It's about externalities, right?

00:51:07.499 --> 00:51:12.939
<v Jessica Palairet>Which is there's this disjunct and big emitters aren't internalizing the externalities

00:51:12.939 --> 00:51:15.899
<v Jessica Palairet>and haven't been for some time. I mean, it's really interesting.

00:51:16.319 --> 00:51:20.439
<v Jessica Palairet>There have been some fantastic developments in international law on climate,

00:51:20.599 --> 00:51:21.819
<v Jessica Palairet>particularly in the last year.

00:51:22.659 --> 00:51:26.439
<v Jessica Palairet>So I mentioned earlier the International Court of Justice put out an advisory

00:51:26.439 --> 00:51:31.679
<v Jessica Palairet>opinion. It was the product of really incredible advocacy by Pacific law students

00:51:31.679 --> 00:51:33.299
<v Jessica Palairet>from the University of South Pacific.

00:51:33.479 --> 00:51:37.819
<v Jessica Palairet>What started as a university assignment on what could we do and what are potential

00:51:37.819 --> 00:51:39.799
<v Jessica Palairet>legal avenues in terms of,

00:51:39.839 --> 00:51:44.739
<v Jessica Palairet>you know, there's students in Pacific Islands who have faced existential risk

00:51:44.739 --> 00:51:48.819
<v Jessica Palairet>in terms of the survivability of some small island states in the Pacific.

00:51:49.319 --> 00:51:53.779
<v Jessica Palairet>What can we do? What are potential legal avenues? and then what started as a

00:51:53.779 --> 00:51:57.699
<v Jessica Palairet>university assignment found its way all the way into the International Court of Justice.

00:51:58.059 --> 00:52:03.019
<v Jessica Palairet>That was also preceded by an opinion, the loss advisory opinions,

00:52:03.119 --> 00:52:05.339
<v Jessica Palairet>it was all about the law of the sea and one of its findings,

00:52:05.639 --> 00:52:09.559
<v Jessica Palairet>what you said earlier made me think of it, that greenhouse gas emissions,

00:52:09.799 --> 00:52:12.339
<v Jessica Palairet>so emissions that affect the atmosphere,

00:52:13.279 --> 00:52:16.799
<v Jessica Palairet>now under international law, in their view, a form of marine pollution.

00:52:17.359 --> 00:52:17.819
<v Chris Patterson>Right?

00:52:17.939 --> 00:52:21.739
<v Jessica Palairet>So that's the kind of how we conceptualise emission, how we conceptualise harm.

00:52:21.879 --> 00:52:25.419
<v Jessica Palairet>Under the law, we're getting some really clear stares from international law.

00:52:25.599 --> 00:52:28.619
<v Jessica Palairet>The question for a country like New Zealand, the question for an organisation

00:52:28.619 --> 00:52:30.999
<v Jessica Palairet>like us is, well, what does that mean domestically?

00:52:31.159 --> 00:52:35.679
<v Jessica Palairet>What does it mean in terms of the development of domestic tort law?

00:52:35.759 --> 00:52:39.039
<v Jessica Palairet>What does it mean in terms of the development of New Zealand climate framework

00:52:39.039 --> 00:52:41.099
<v Jessica Palairet>laws? That's our next question.

00:52:41.319 --> 00:52:44.639
<v Chris Patterson>Do we need to change the focus? When I say change the focus,

00:52:44.739 --> 00:52:50.319
<v Chris Patterson>do we need to add to the focus not just dealing with the consumption end of

00:52:50.319 --> 00:52:53.119
<v Chris Patterson>this issue, which is the emissions, you know.

00:52:53.379 --> 00:53:00.559
<v Chris Patterson>But what about the supply end? Why couldn't we treat effectively fossil fuels

00:53:00.559 --> 00:53:04.499
<v Chris Patterson>as, depending on what they're used for,

00:53:05.491 --> 00:53:09.431
<v Chris Patterson>is causing harm and saying they need to be regulated, you know,

00:53:09.491 --> 00:53:12.331
<v Chris Patterson>the export of them needs to be regulated.

00:53:12.731 --> 00:53:16.271
<v Jessica Palairet>Well, the export of them is an interesting one. I mean, we do regulate a lot

00:53:16.271 --> 00:53:19.011
<v Jessica Palairet>of emissions. So we have an emissions trading scheme in New Zealand.

00:53:19.171 --> 00:53:20.911
<v Jessica Palairet>We've previously bought successful

00:53:20.911 --> 00:53:24.071
<v Jessica Palairet>legal challenge about the emissions trading scheme in New Zealand.

00:53:24.211 --> 00:53:28.371
<v Jessica Palairet>And that covers not all our emitting sectors, but a very, very large,

00:53:28.491 --> 00:53:30.891
<v Jessica Palairet>you know, it doesn't cover agriculture, but it covers an awful lot of them.

00:53:31.071 --> 00:53:35.671
<v Jessica Palairet>It's a flawed scheme. There's an oversupply of units, industrial free The allocation

00:53:35.671 --> 00:53:40.111
<v Jessica Palairet>is still kind of messing with how effective it is and can be as a pricing signal.

00:53:40.451 --> 00:53:44.451
<v Jessica Palairet>But that is a way in which we effectively try to price emissions in New Zealand

00:53:44.451 --> 00:53:46.151
<v Jessica Palairet>as a form of regulating them.

00:53:46.911 --> 00:53:49.691
<v Jessica Palairet>There's an awful lot that needs to happen to make that more effective.

00:53:50.071 --> 00:53:54.991
<v Jessica Palairet>But I think working well, it could be a really powerful and effective tool at regulating emissions.

00:53:55.211 --> 00:53:58.311
<v Jessica Palairet>More domestically rather than internationally, there's all sort of complexities

00:53:58.311 --> 00:54:02.431
<v Jessica Palairet>in terms of exporting emissions. But, you know, in terms of controlling what

00:54:02.431 --> 00:54:05.711
<v Jessica Palairet>we can control, we can do an awful lot better in our emissions trading scale.

00:54:05.711 --> 00:54:11.011
<v Chris Patterson>Well, I mean, there are examples of that. I mean, in other sectors of the economy.

00:54:11.131 --> 00:54:15.411
<v Chris Patterson>Because I'm just saying, like, is there no law at the moment in New Zealand

00:54:15.411 --> 00:54:19.511
<v Chris Patterson>to prevent someone from mining coal and exporting it overseas?

00:54:19.671 --> 00:54:23.231
<v Jessica Palairet>No, there's no law. No, our laws are actively encouraging that.

00:54:23.751 --> 00:54:26.951
<v Jessica Palairet>There's no law that stops that at all. Okay. To my knowledge,

00:54:26.991 --> 00:54:30.251
<v Jessica Palairet>maybe a listener can correct me, but not that I know. Right.

00:54:30.391 --> 00:54:34.731
<v Chris Patterson>Well, I mean, presumably, I mean, I'm not across it all, but presumably,

00:54:35.251 --> 00:54:40.311
<v Chris Patterson>you know, we have, I haven't looked into this, but we have laws around manufacturing

00:54:40.311 --> 00:54:45.311
<v Chris Patterson>pharmaceuticals or producing alcohol or tobacco,

00:54:45.711 --> 00:54:49.531
<v Chris Patterson>you know, because we know these things can produce harmful if they're not,

00:54:49.551 --> 00:54:50.891
<v Chris Patterson>you know, used properly.

00:54:50.891 --> 00:54:56.931
<v Chris Patterson>And therefore, so we regulate the production of it so that we know that the

00:54:56.931 --> 00:55:04.211
<v Chris Patterson>end user has some safety or where it's going to is somehow going to be controlled.

00:55:05.113 --> 00:55:09.853
<v Chris Patterson>Rather than just relying on whoever the importer is to somehow do that.

00:55:09.953 --> 00:55:14.073
<v Jessica Palairet>I mean, a couple of thoughts for you. One slight fact check on myself just before,

00:55:14.273 --> 00:55:17.093
<v Jessica Palairet>there is starting to be some law on fossil fuels.

00:55:17.253 --> 00:55:21.033
<v Jessica Palairet>So the International Court of Justice and the advisory opinion did say that

00:55:21.033 --> 00:55:27.233
<v Jessica Palairet>the exploration and subsidisation and support for fossil fuel extraction and

00:55:27.233 --> 00:55:32.413
<v Jessica Palairet>exploration licences could be an internationally wrongful act under international law.

00:55:32.413 --> 00:55:36.193
<v Jessica Palairet>Again, you've got that issue in New Zealand where international law is an automatically

00:55:36.193 --> 00:55:41.533
<v Jessica Palairet>domestic law, but there's international law and kind of international expectations developing there.

00:55:41.873 --> 00:55:43.393
<v Jessica Palairet>The second thing that I'd say

00:55:43.393 --> 00:55:46.533
<v Jessica Palairet>is there's actually a really interesting challenge. Our co-founder, Dr.

00:55:46.633 --> 00:55:50.893
<v Jessica Palairet>James Every Palmer, KC, he's acting for a group of students that have brought

00:55:50.893 --> 00:55:53.933
<v Jessica Palairet>a challenge actually against the former Labour government.

00:55:54.213 --> 00:55:58.793
<v Jessica Palairet>Megan Woods, who was then Minister for Energy, granted an onshore petroleum

00:55:58.793 --> 00:56:00.933
<v Jessica Palairet>exploration permit in Taranaki.

00:56:00.933 --> 00:56:04.353
<v Jessica Palairet>And the students have challenged it saying, again, it's a judicial review,

00:56:04.573 --> 00:56:08.793
<v Jessica Palairet>saying that climate change and impacts on climate change of granting this permit

00:56:08.793 --> 00:56:11.333
<v Jessica Palairet>should have been a mandatory relevant consideration.

00:56:12.493 --> 00:56:15.333
<v Jessica Palairet>Unsuccessful at the High Court, there's a theme in kind of New Zealand climate

00:56:15.333 --> 00:56:20.093
<v Jessica Palairet>litigation, unsuccessful at the Court of Appeal, the Supreme Court heard it earlier this year.

00:56:20.253 --> 00:56:24.753
<v Jessica Palairet>So in terms of what we can do to try and kind of, you know, regulate and kind

00:56:24.753 --> 00:56:28.433
<v Jessica Palairet>of constrain decision or even just direct decisions a bit more in a kind of

00:56:28.433 --> 00:56:33.633
<v Jessica Palairet>climate friendly way, the Supreme Court's judgment there is going to be really significant.

00:56:33.833 --> 00:56:37.313
<v Jessica Palairet>They say that climate change was a mandatory relevant consideration.

00:56:37.613 --> 00:56:39.393
<v Jessica Palairet>You have to think about the emissions impacts.

00:56:39.873 --> 00:56:42.953
<v Jessica Palairet>I mean, one, there'd just be a transparency value, I think, if that kind of

00:56:42.953 --> 00:56:45.413
<v Jessica Palairet>assessment was required to be carried out.

00:56:45.673 --> 00:56:49.153
<v Jessica Palairet>But B, then you have to ask, well, would that affect decision-making?

00:56:49.433 --> 00:56:54.193
<v Jessica Palairet>And perhaps it would make that kind of decision to grant permits less likely.

00:56:54.553 --> 00:56:58.193
<v Chris Patterson>Okay. No, that's really interesting. Let's talk now about, you know,

00:56:58.273 --> 00:57:00.413
<v Chris Patterson>the role of lawyers and legal education professionals.

00:57:00.756 --> 00:57:04.056
<v Chris Patterson>You know, in transition to net zero. Do you think there's an ethical,

00:57:04.356 --> 00:57:09.576
<v Chris Patterson>professional duty on lawyers to, you know, take into consideration climate change

00:57:09.576 --> 00:57:11.956
<v Chris Patterson>issues we're obliged to?

00:57:12.196 --> 00:57:15.356
<v Jessica Palairet>Well, I mean, if you're giving advice to a client, you've got obligations to

00:57:15.356 --> 00:57:20.536
<v Jessica Palairet>that client to give them, you know, good advice that's well-educated and well-informed.

00:57:20.716 --> 00:57:25.096
<v Jessica Palairet>And I think that climate change is going to increasingly impact all sorts of

00:57:25.096 --> 00:57:26.296
<v Jessica Palairet>different areas of practice.

00:57:26.536 --> 00:57:30.796
<v Jessica Palairet>And understanding climate science and understanding the ways in which it might

00:57:30.796 --> 00:57:33.896
<v Jessica Palairet>impact different aspects of legal practice, I think is, of course, relevant.

00:57:34.096 --> 00:57:36.936
<v Jessica Palairet>So, I mean, there are obvious examples. If you're advising a board,

00:57:37.076 --> 00:57:41.236
<v Jessica Palairet>well, you know, company directors in New Zealand have obligations around,

00:57:41.356 --> 00:57:44.956
<v Jessica Palairet>lots of company directors have obligations around climate-related disclosures.

00:57:45.136 --> 00:57:51.356
<v Jessica Palairet>And this is law that requires company directors to consider risks and opportunities of climate change.

00:57:51.516 --> 00:57:55.156
<v Jessica Palairet>So, you know, if you're then advising a board and you probably need to understand

00:57:55.156 --> 00:57:57.876
<v Jessica Palairet>something about the climate risks and opportunities, Similarly,

00:57:58.156 --> 00:58:02.996
<v Jessica Palairet>directors increasingly, it's a debate about whether or not directors have obligations

00:58:02.996 --> 00:58:06.796
<v Jessica Palairet>to take into account climate and ESG factors and decision-making.

00:58:07.076 --> 00:58:11.556
<v Jessica Palairet>New Zealand law suggests that company directors may take those into account.

00:58:11.736 --> 00:58:15.896
<v Jessica Palairet>But again, if you're providing advice, and it has to be well-informed, well-rounded advice,

00:58:16.681 --> 00:58:22.361
<v Jessica Palairet>and you're advising a company that does face climate risk or there are opportunities

00:58:22.361 --> 00:58:25.041
<v Jessica Palairet>of climate change that are relevant to it,

00:58:25.321 --> 00:58:30.281
<v Jessica Palairet>it would be you do have an obligation to then be skilled and knowledgeable enough

00:58:30.281 --> 00:58:33.441
<v Jessica Palairet>about these issues that you provide that advice onto your clients.

00:58:34.621 --> 00:58:39.541
<v Chris Patterson>Do you think there's opportunities in legal education as well to better prepare

00:58:39.541 --> 00:58:46.441
<v Chris Patterson>lawyers for a more sustainable future so that lawyers become more aware of these issues?

00:58:46.681 --> 00:58:51.201
<v Jessica Palairet>I mean, absolutely. I mean, I think if you were a law graduate entering the

00:58:51.201 --> 00:58:56.321
<v Jessica Palairet>workforce now, it's a pretty turbulent time, you know, climate change,

00:58:56.541 --> 00:59:00.841
<v Jessica Palairet>AI, like it's an enormously challenging time to enter into the profession.

00:59:01.648 --> 00:59:07.108
<v Jessica Palairet>And, I mean, as I said before, I think that lawyers need to be aware of these issues.

00:59:07.308 --> 00:59:12.528
<v Jessica Palairet>And, I mean, climate change is, it's an existential threat to humanity, like, to put it bluntly.

00:59:13.668 --> 00:59:17.008
<v Jessica Palairet>And we need to not be living under a rock. I think it's really important.

00:59:17.008 --> 00:59:21.848
<v Jessica Palairet>And one of our fantastic board members, so we're an organisation that's been run off volunteer mahi.

00:59:22.228 --> 00:59:26.248
<v Jessica Palairet>And we've got an amazing volunteer board. We've got 11 lawyers across the country.

00:59:26.248 --> 00:59:29.608
<v Jessica Palairet>One of whom is Deborah Dorrington, who's been working to try and get the New

00:59:29.608 --> 00:59:35.028
<v Jessica Palairet>Zealand Law Society to actually adopt a policy on I'm a conscious lawyering

00:59:35.028 --> 00:59:38.688
<v Jessica Palairet>and has been facing a slightly uphill battle to get that across the line.

00:59:38.848 --> 00:59:43.308
<v Jessica Palairet>There's been working to try to try and do that, to provide resources to lawyers.

00:59:43.668 --> 00:59:48.188
<v Jessica Palairet>I mean, on our website, we've got guidance on local government and what are

00:59:48.188 --> 00:59:53.168
<v Jessica Palairet>legal obligations on councils and local governments across the country relating to climate.

00:59:53.168 --> 00:59:57.768
<v Jessica Palairet>We've got other resources, you know, legal opinions on various issues that affect

00:59:57.768 --> 01:00:00.468
<v Jessica Palairet>different aspects of the economy, different types of decision makers,

01:00:00.628 --> 01:00:01.708
<v Jessica Palairet>different types of entities.

01:00:02.008 --> 01:00:06.148
<v Jessica Palairet>And then I think that's a really important, really important aspect of what

01:00:06.148 --> 01:00:08.128
<v Jessica Palairet>we do and what we need to do in.

01:00:08.128 --> 01:00:11.348
<v Chris Patterson>The legal profession. 100%. Now, you've got a book coming up.

01:00:11.488 --> 01:00:14.868
<v Chris Patterson>There's a book about to be, is it published or is it about to be published?

01:00:14.988 --> 01:00:17.848
<v Jessica Palairet>So, I'm just writing one chapter in the book.

01:00:17.988 --> 01:00:23.048
<v Jessica Palairet>There's 30 authors, 24 chapters, and it's available for pre-order next month.

01:00:23.168 --> 01:00:27.448
<v Jessica Palairet>In November, and I believe it's being published in March of next year.

01:00:27.528 --> 01:00:28.368
<v Chris Patterson>What's the title of the book?

01:00:28.728 --> 01:00:35.608
<v Jessica Palairet>Title of the book is Kiwis and Climate. And so it canvases work that Kiwi around

01:00:35.608 --> 01:00:37.668
<v Jessica Palairet>the world are doing on climate change.

01:00:37.808 --> 01:00:42.448
<v Jessica Palairet>And the focus is not at all on sacrifice, and we need to cut back in order to

01:00:42.448 --> 01:00:46.548
<v Jessica Palairet>have a livable planet, but actually about opportunities and hope and stories

01:00:46.548 --> 01:00:49.968
<v Jessica Palairet>of New Zealanders, whether you're working in climate. There are CEOs.

01:00:50.328 --> 01:00:53.708
<v Jessica Palairet>There's chapters from someone who works in venture capital. there's chapters

01:00:53.708 --> 01:00:56.028
<v Jessica Palairet>from young people, there's chapters from activists.

01:00:56.348 --> 01:00:58.848
<v Jessica Palairet>I'm writing one about the role of the law in the transition.

01:00:59.766 --> 01:01:03.986
<v Jessica Palairet>All these different aspects of the climate movement and different people working

01:01:03.986 --> 01:01:07.726
<v Jessica Palairet>on different aspects of the climate movement, you know, providing a stock take

01:01:07.726 --> 01:01:13.786
<v Jessica Palairet>on where New Zealand is at in terms of climate action, but also kind of a story of hope.

01:01:13.906 --> 01:01:18.246
<v Jessica Palairet>You know, there's really smart, fantastic people working on these issues across

01:01:18.246 --> 01:01:19.646
<v Jessica Palairet>the country, across the world,

01:01:19.846 --> 01:01:25.046
<v Jessica Palairet>talking about how a climate-friendly future, a low-emissions future,

01:01:25.226 --> 01:01:29.446
<v Jessica Palairet>there's a better future and a future where, you know, there's hope.

01:01:29.446 --> 01:01:34.806
<v Jessica Palairet>And so that's the book, and I was really grateful to be asked to write a chapter

01:01:34.806 --> 01:01:35.966
<v Jessica Palairet>in it. So it's been really cool.

01:01:36.146 --> 01:01:36.986
<v Chris Patterson>What does your chapter cover?

01:01:37.711 --> 01:01:40.791
<v Jessica Palairet>Lots of what we've been talking about. So I talk about climate litigation.

01:01:41.111 --> 01:01:44.951
<v Jessica Palairet>I mean, there's over 3,000 cases around the world. I zero in a bit more on what's

01:01:44.951 --> 01:01:47.391
<v Jessica Palairet>happening domestically, the most interesting developments there.

01:01:47.611 --> 01:01:52.471
<v Jessica Palairet>I talk about the role of the legal profession in responding to climate change.

01:01:52.811 --> 01:01:56.611
<v Jessica Palairet>Yeah, and I canvass some of the big kind of topics in New Zealand climate law,

01:01:56.751 --> 01:01:59.771
<v Jessica Palairet>you know, greenwashing, what happens in our climate targets,

01:02:00.131 --> 01:02:03.591
<v Jessica Palairet>international law and our nationally determined contributions under Paris and

01:02:03.591 --> 01:02:04.811
<v Jessica Palairet>how well New Zealand's doing.

01:02:05.131 --> 01:02:08.511
<v Jessica Palairet>And I also just talk a bit more about our organisation And, you know,

01:02:08.591 --> 01:02:13.231
<v Jessica Palairet>we've been around for six years now, started out completely volunteer,

01:02:13.391 --> 01:02:14.731
<v Jessica Palairet>like an organic group of lawyers,

01:02:14.911 --> 01:02:19.971
<v Jessica Palairet>started by James Everett Palmer and Jenny Cooper, who saw an opportunity and

01:02:19.971 --> 01:02:22.911
<v Jessica Palairet>wanted to do something, wanted to make a difference and started an organization.

01:02:23.071 --> 01:02:25.711
<v Jessica Palairet>And I talk a bit about our journey as well.

01:02:26.131 --> 01:02:28.831
<v Jessica Palairet>And, you know, we've got a membership. We welcome new members.

01:02:28.831 --> 01:02:32.471
<v Jessica Palairet>If you're a lawyer, if you've got a practicing certificate, if you studied law

01:02:32.471 --> 01:02:35.871
<v Jessica Palairet>and you want to become part of what we do, you know, you can sign up as a member

01:02:35.871 --> 01:02:39.491
<v Jessica Palairet>online and, yeah, join our co-papa.

01:02:39.911 --> 01:02:42.831
<v Chris Patterson>How do we pre-order this book? How do we go about doing that?

01:02:42.991 --> 01:02:46.491
<v Jessica Palairet>I think it'll be on a website. Yeah. And I think there's a fantastic marketing

01:02:46.491 --> 01:02:48.951
<v Jessica Palairet>team we've got who's going to be pushing it out there.

01:02:48.951 --> 01:02:53.151
<v Chris Patterson>Okay. In the episode notes, I'll get a link or something and we'll put that in there.

01:02:53.571 --> 01:02:57.211
<v Chris Patterson>Bea, you mentioned greenwashing. Can we just talk about that for just a second?

01:02:57.371 --> 01:03:02.451
<v Chris Patterson>What's your views on greenwashing? And does the law play a role in perhaps modifying

01:03:02.451 --> 01:03:04.231
<v Chris Patterson>that or, you know, responding to it?

01:03:04.331 --> 01:03:09.031
<v Jessica Palairet>I mean, absolutely. It's a real problem. And it's one where actually Australian

01:03:09.031 --> 01:03:13.311
<v Jessica Palairet>regulators have been so much more proactive than New Zealand regulators on it.

01:03:13.693 --> 01:03:16.393
<v Chris Patterson>So much so, we brought a complaint against Z Energy,

01:03:16.413 --> 01:03:21.133
<v Jessica Palairet>Who ran a campaign a couple of years ago saying, we're in the business of getting

01:03:21.133 --> 01:03:23.413
<v Jessica Palairet>out of the petrol business and we're moving with the times.

01:03:23.733 --> 01:03:26.433
<v Jessica Palairet>And we said, well, no, you're not. You're a petrol company.

01:03:26.953 --> 01:03:30.913
<v Jessica Palairet>You're only going to get out of the petrol business when no one wants to buy your petrol anymore.

01:03:31.193 --> 01:03:35.453
<v Jessica Palairet>You can't say that. We tried to get the Commerce Commission to pick it up and they wouldn't do it.

01:03:35.593 --> 01:03:39.533
<v Jessica Palairet>So then we've actually filed New Zealand's first climate washing case in the

01:03:39.533 --> 01:03:44.333
<v Jessica Palairet>High Court, along with Consumer New Zealand and ELI, and that's moving through the court process.

01:03:44.393 --> 01:03:47.913
<v Chris Patterson>Is that a claim under the Fair Trading Act for misleading deceptive conduct?

01:03:48.133 --> 01:03:50.673
<v Jessica Palairet>Well, that's why it's so called partnering with Consumer New Zealand,

01:03:50.813 --> 01:03:53.333
<v Jessica Palairet>because actually at its heart, it's a consumer protection issue.

01:03:53.393 --> 01:03:56.193
<v Jessica Palairet>And our hope here is we are setting a precedent.

01:03:56.393 --> 01:03:59.933
<v Jessica Palairet>I mean, the fact that there's been no enforcement, the fact that we're the first

01:03:59.933 --> 01:04:05.533
<v Jessica Palairet>group to bring an enforcement action on greenwashing in New Zealand is kind of remarkable.

01:04:05.613 --> 01:04:09.993
<v Jessica Palairet>And what it has meant is that there's been a kind of carte blanche to companies

01:04:09.993 --> 01:04:10.993
<v Jessica Palairet>to say whatever they want.

01:04:11.153 --> 01:04:15.293
<v Jessica Palairet>You can be a petrol company and say you're getting out of a petrol business.

01:04:15.753 --> 01:04:19.573
<v Jessica Palairet>Our view is there has to be enforcement. There has to be a line in the sand.

01:04:19.753 --> 01:04:24.393
<v Jessica Palairet>And the goal here is to A, provide that enforcement and then B,

01:04:24.513 --> 01:04:29.513
<v Jessica Palairet>set a precedent and an example that actually helps other companies know what

01:04:29.513 --> 01:04:31.193
<v Jessica Palairet>kind of conduct crosses the line.

01:04:31.333 --> 01:04:34.873
<v Jessica Palairet>But the problem with greenwashing in our view is it enables companies to then

01:04:34.873 --> 01:04:38.253
<v Jessica Palairet>have a green halo that makes people think, oh, well, all good.

01:04:38.253 --> 01:04:41.053
<v Jessica Palairet>I'll just continue filling up my car with petrol, but don't worry,

01:04:41.313 --> 01:04:42.233
<v Jessica Palairet>it's all going to be fine.

01:04:42.613 --> 01:04:48.913
<v Jessica Palairet>But if you don't have, if your actions don't live up and match your words, that's a problem.

01:04:48.913 --> 01:04:52.893
<v Jessica Palairet>And it's actually really unfair for the companies that are trying very hard

01:04:52.893 --> 01:04:58.733
<v Jessica Palairet>and investing really hard on having the actions to support and substantiate

01:04:58.733 --> 01:05:00.853
<v Jessica Palairet>their words. It's got to be a level playing field.

01:05:01.486 --> 01:05:04.806
<v Chris Patterson>I've been thinking about that, about the Green Party for many years.

01:05:04.986 --> 01:05:08.346
<v Chris Patterson>I've thought that they're probably an example of greenwashing.

01:05:08.546 --> 01:05:13.486
<v Chris Patterson>I'd love it if there was an environmental party that said, we're going to focus on one thing,

01:05:13.606 --> 01:05:17.466
<v Chris Patterson>we're going to focus on the environment and we'll support whatever major political

01:05:17.466 --> 01:05:23.126
<v Chris Patterson>party is in power on every issue other than something that we regard as being

01:05:23.126 --> 01:05:24.386
<v Chris Patterson>detrimental to the environment,

01:05:24.606 --> 01:05:29.246
<v Chris Patterson>rather than calling yourself the Greens and not actually focusing on the environment

01:05:29.246 --> 01:05:31.646
<v Chris Patterson>and making a particular positive change.

01:05:31.846 --> 01:05:36.146
<v Chris Patterson>But that's more of a political view from my view.

01:05:36.366 --> 01:05:39.266
<v Chris Patterson>Just calling a party the Green Party doesn't mean that you're green.

01:05:39.506 --> 01:05:44.586
<v Chris Patterson>But we've got to look at more international examples of where real environmental

01:05:44.586 --> 01:05:46.546
<v Chris Patterson>parties have made real positive moves.

01:05:46.706 --> 01:05:48.766
<v Chris Patterson>But hey, look, sorry, I got off topic about your book.

01:05:49.066 --> 01:05:54.066
<v Chris Patterson>Looking ahead, policy law reform and the future of legal advocacy challenges.

01:05:54.986 --> 01:05:58.686
<v Chris Patterson>What does your crystal ball look like at the moment when you look at,

01:05:58.726 --> 01:06:03.346
<v Chris Patterson>you know, the future ahead on these areas of policy and law reform and what

01:06:03.346 --> 01:06:04.846
<v Chris Patterson>legal advocacy might look like?

01:06:05.106 --> 01:06:09.946
<v Jessica Palairet>Really good question. I mean, as ever, there is so much happening in this space.

01:06:10.146 --> 01:06:13.686
<v Jessica Palairet>I mean, we're really wanting to encourage the New Zealand government to take

01:06:13.686 --> 01:06:16.986
<v Jessica Palairet>a more leadership position and take climate more seriously. I think the minimum

01:06:16.986 --> 01:06:21.246
<v Jessica Palairet>viable option kind of approach that we're seeing, we don't think,

01:06:21.386 --> 01:06:23.046
<v Jessica Palairet>means legal obligations.

01:06:23.146 --> 01:06:26.746
<v Jessica Palairet>Doesn't match with what the International Court Justice says that states have

01:06:26.746 --> 01:06:29.486
<v Jessica Palairet>to do. So there's a whole heap of decisions coming up.

01:06:29.646 --> 01:06:33.406
<v Jessica Palairet>A government is shortly going to decide whether to weaken our methane target.

01:06:33.546 --> 01:06:36.686
<v Jessica Palairet>There's a question about whether New Zealand becomes the first country in the

01:06:36.686 --> 01:06:41.546
<v Jessica Palairet>world to adopt a pretty controversial metric to measure methane emissions that

01:06:41.546 --> 01:06:44.186
<v Jessica Palairet>would allow us to reduce our methane target.

01:06:44.346 --> 01:06:47.786
<v Jessica Palairet>That decision's coming up. There's other decisions about whether we follow the

01:06:47.786 --> 01:06:51.926
<v Jessica Palairet>Climate Change Commission's advice to tighten our emissions budgets.

01:06:52.763 --> 01:06:54.363
<v Chris Patterson>There's also an awful lot of questions.

01:06:54.623 --> 01:06:59.483
<v Jessica Palairet>I mean, the government had an energy bunch of policies related to energy announced last week.

01:06:59.643 --> 01:07:04.143
<v Jessica Palairet>But again, just kind of fell short of the energy transition strategy that lots

01:07:04.143 --> 01:07:06.923
<v Jessica Palairet>in the sector are just absolutely calling out for.

01:07:07.143 --> 01:07:11.123
<v Jessica Palairet>So there's an awful lot of interesting developments. So we're going to court

01:07:11.123 --> 01:07:15.183
<v Jessica Palairet>in March. We've got a three-day hearing lockdown in Wellington for our challenge

01:07:15.183 --> 01:07:16.923
<v Jessica Palairet>to the emissions reduction plan.

01:07:17.203 --> 01:07:20.883
<v Jessica Palairet>Obviously hoping for a win. We've got a leave to appeal application currently

01:07:20.883 --> 01:07:24.343
<v Jessica Palairet>before the Supreme Court for a challenge to New Zealand's climate targets.

01:07:24.543 --> 01:07:28.123
<v Jessica Palairet>So we're awaiting the outcome on that.

01:07:28.263 --> 01:07:32.983
<v Jessica Palairet>So there's a number of things kind of going on. I mean, our view is the law

01:07:32.983 --> 01:07:34.783
<v Jessica Palairet>is an incredibly powerful tool.

01:07:35.023 --> 01:07:38.943
<v Jessica Palairet>Strategic litigation is an incredibly powerful tool. There's lots of paths to victory.

01:07:39.123 --> 01:07:43.303
<v Jessica Palairet>A win, I mean, we've had wins before that have had huge impacts on like, you know, the.

01:07:45.543 --> 01:07:48.243
<v Chris Patterson>You know, there's paths to victory you might not win,

01:07:48.283 --> 01:07:51.143
<v Jessica Palairet>But there still may be ways in which you're advancing and furthering the law.

01:07:51.383 --> 01:07:54.383
<v Jessica Palairet>But similarly, you have to be really careful because you don't want climate

01:07:54.383 --> 01:07:57.603
<v Jessica Palairet>litigation to actually have a negative effect.

01:07:57.663 --> 01:08:00.863
<v Jessica Palairet>You want it to actually push things forward and picking and choosing your cases,

01:08:00.983 --> 01:08:02.543
<v Jessica Palairet>especially we're a charity.

01:08:02.783 --> 01:08:06.083
<v Jessica Palairet>We, you know, don't have a ton of money behind us and most of our litigation,

01:08:06.343 --> 01:08:09.723
<v Jessica Palairet>well, all of it really pro bono or on a heavily reduced fee basis.

01:08:10.123 --> 01:08:12.603
<v Jessica Palairet>So you've got to pick and choose your battles really carefully.

01:08:12.603 --> 01:08:15.963
<v Jessica Palairet>And at the end of the day, we don't want to go to court.

01:08:16.143 --> 01:08:18.983
<v Jessica Palairet>We want to resolve things. We want to see stronger climate policy.

01:08:19.423 --> 01:08:22.643
<v Jessica Palairet>Adaptation is something else coming up around the corner. There's a big adaptation

01:08:22.643 --> 01:08:25.283
<v Jessica Palairet>strategy that the government's due to release soon.

01:08:25.403 --> 01:08:28.383
<v Jessica Palairet>And that's super important for coastal communities in New Zealand.

01:08:28.743 --> 01:08:34.243
<v Jessica Palairet>So there's an awful lot of stuff happening. But I think one thing is that the role of the law,

01:08:34.483 --> 01:08:39.063
<v Jessica Palairet>the kind of increasing importance of the law, whether it's getting the legal

01:08:39.063 --> 01:08:43.043
<v Jessica Palairet>settings right, debating the future of tort law, or bringing climate litigation

01:08:43.043 --> 01:08:46.983
<v Jessica Palairet>proceedings in the court, I don't think that's slowing down anytime soon.

01:08:47.383 --> 01:08:51.823
<v Chris Patterson>It seems to be increasing. I mean, my little survey that I did a couple of days

01:08:51.823 --> 01:08:58.483
<v Chris Patterson>ago is that climate litigation globally is increasing dramatically, like exponentially.

01:08:58.883 --> 01:09:03.223
<v Chris Patterson>And I wonder if it's just because more of an awareness of, you know,

01:09:03.403 --> 01:09:10.043
<v Chris Patterson>just how big a problem this is and the role that law can play in possibly helping address it.

01:09:10.043 --> 01:09:15.223
<v Chris Patterson>And I think New Zealand's had a – there have been times in our history where

01:09:15.223 --> 01:09:16.783
<v Chris Patterson>we have been able to lead the world.

01:09:16.903 --> 01:09:21.623
<v Chris Patterson>I mean, just think about our anti-nuclear legislation, which for listeners,

01:09:21.843 --> 01:09:25.983
<v Chris Patterson>by the way, it relates to nuclear weapons and nuclear-powered vessels.

01:09:26.063 --> 01:09:29.643
<v Chris Patterson>It's not legislation against nuclear energy.

01:09:29.863 --> 01:09:32.123
<v Chris Patterson>That's not what the legislation prevents.

01:09:32.423 --> 01:09:35.343
<v Chris Patterson>There's a whole lot of other laws that we have that make that very difficult.

01:09:36.488 --> 01:09:40.648
<v Chris Patterson>But, you know, that really put us out of favour with, you know,

01:09:40.728 --> 01:09:43.808
<v Chris Patterson>one of our major allies being the United States at the time.

01:09:43.968 --> 01:09:48.608
<v Chris Patterson>And possibly we still haven't really got properly back in the room with them for it.

01:09:48.888 --> 01:09:52.548
<v Chris Patterson>But that's because as a nation, we were able to say, well, you know,

01:09:52.728 --> 01:09:56.648
<v Chris Patterson>nuclear conflict is a major threat to all of humanity.

01:09:56.648 --> 01:10:01.668
<v Chris Patterson>And we're just not going to stand by and do nothing and condone it.

01:10:01.668 --> 01:10:05.448
<v Chris Patterson>So, you know, I guess there's a precedent already there for us as a nation to

01:10:05.448 --> 01:10:08.488
<v Chris Patterson>say, you know, we could be bold rather than doing the minimum.

01:10:08.948 --> 01:10:13.388
<v Chris Patterson>We could actually take a radical step forward and say, well,

01:10:13.488 --> 01:10:19.588
<v Chris Patterson>we're going to pass laws that mean it's very difficult to be an emitter rather than.

01:10:19.748 --> 01:10:25.308
<v Chris Patterson>And I was shocked when you said there's no laws preventing the export of coal out of New Zealand.

01:10:25.308 --> 01:10:29.028
<v Chris Patterson>I'm sure, I don't know, I haven't looked at this, but presumably countries that

01:10:29.028 --> 01:10:33.588
<v Chris Patterson>we can get, you know, uranium that can be refined into sort of weapons grade,

01:10:33.768 --> 01:10:39.548
<v Chris Patterson>they have laws that prevent them in their countries being able to export that resource.

01:10:39.768 --> 01:10:42.408
<v Jessica Palairet>Well, I think the other, I mean, I agree with you, but I mean,

01:10:42.568 --> 01:10:47.468
<v Jessica Palairet>I think my vision for New Zealand law would probably less about just legislating

01:10:47.468 --> 01:10:53.228
<v Jessica Palairet>what you can't do and more getting our laws oriented more towards what we can do.

01:10:53.228 --> 01:10:58.368
<v Jessica Palairet>So how can we make New Zealand the world's most electrified economy?

01:10:58.548 --> 01:11:01.468
<v Jessica Palairet>And what do we need to change in our laws in order to make that happen?

01:11:01.708 --> 01:11:05.648
<v Jessica Palairet>And what that means is it's not kind of a less, less, less, don't do this,

01:11:05.648 --> 01:11:10.588
<v Jessica Palairet>slap on the wrist kind of an approach, but it's more, as I said earlier. Enabling.

01:11:10.788 --> 01:11:17.048
<v Jessica Palairet>It's enabling. It's cheaper energy and it's cleaner energy. And I think that's the opportunity.

01:11:17.268 --> 01:11:20.768
<v Jessica Palairet>And New Zealand can be a leader. And I think it's in our interests to be a leader.

01:11:20.768 --> 01:11:23.508
<v Jessica Palairet>I mean, there's chapters in the book, you know, former trade minister,

01:11:23.728 --> 01:11:28.808
<v Jessica Palairet>I think Tim Gross has written a chapter in this book about why it's in New Zealand's national interests.

01:11:29.799 --> 01:11:34.799
<v Jessica Palairet>To be pursuing, you know, a low emissions economy transition in a meaningful way.

01:11:35.059 --> 01:11:39.599
<v Jessica Palairet>And the thing is, we're so far, in my view, from being a country that's leading.

01:11:39.599 --> 01:11:43.659
<v Jessica Palairet>We've had moments where we've led our climate framework law is really good. We.

01:11:43.659 --> 01:11:44.439
<v Chris Patterson>Were the first

01:11:44.439 --> 01:11:48.139
<v Jessica Palairet>Country in the world a couple of years ago to introduce climate-related disclosures.

01:11:48.299 --> 01:11:51.219
<v Jessica Palairet>There's precedent for us doing it in a climate sense as well.

01:11:51.399 --> 01:11:55.139
<v Jessica Palairet>The problem is we're literally being overtaken by Australia at the moment in

01:11:55.139 --> 01:11:57.099
<v Jessica Palairet>terms of the ambition of our climate target.

01:11:57.159 --> 01:11:57.939
<v Chris Patterson>Which says a lot.

01:11:58.179 --> 01:12:02.979
<v Jessica Palairet>It says a lot. And so there's just, you know, even if New Zealand isn't the

01:12:02.979 --> 01:12:06.139
<v Jessica Palairet>number one leader, although I think we can be, and I think it's in our interests

01:12:06.139 --> 01:12:08.279
<v Jessica Palairet>to be, and I think there's a really hopeful,

01:12:08.739 --> 01:12:12.099
<v Jessica Palairet>positive vision for what that could mean, even if we're not the number one in

01:12:12.099 --> 01:12:14.399
<v Jessica Palairet>the world, it's pretty embarrassing if we're worse than Australia.

01:12:14.659 --> 01:12:18.839
<v Jessica Palairet>And so I think that there's just such an opportunity here for New Zealand.

01:12:19.039 --> 01:12:22.319
<v Jessica Palairet>And, you know, the crisis we face is real. It's serious. It's important.

01:12:22.579 --> 01:12:26.299
<v Chris Patterson>And maybe this is where, you know, you mentioned being a small country.

01:12:26.299 --> 01:12:29.839
<v Chris Patterson>Maybe this is where we do have an advantage because, you know,

01:12:29.899 --> 01:12:31.019
<v Chris Patterson>we are a smaller country.

01:12:31.139 --> 01:12:34.719
<v Chris Patterson>We don't have a lot of the problems that, you know, a lot of other countries

01:12:34.719 --> 01:12:40.999
<v Chris Patterson>in the world have in terms of being able to be innovative and being able to lead.

01:12:41.359 --> 01:12:47.219
<v Chris Patterson>And also to just, I guess, in a way, say this is the way that we'd like to design our society.

01:12:47.539 --> 01:12:52.199
<v Chris Patterson>And to do that, we'll use the law as a positive tool for change.

01:12:53.179 --> 01:12:59.239
<v Chris Patterson>I'm going to do some blatant name dropping. But back in 2017,

01:12:59.499 --> 01:13:05.839
<v Chris Patterson>I had a coffee with David Parker, who was hoping to become Attorney General again.

01:13:06.700 --> 01:13:11.340
<v Chris Patterson>And we talked about EVs and subsidising EVs. Well, I brought it into the conversation.

01:13:11.500 --> 01:13:15.640
<v Chris Patterson>I said, well, there needs to be subsidy because it just, without subsidies,

01:13:16.400 --> 01:13:20.900
<v Chris Patterson>New Zealanders are always going to spend as little as they possibly can to get

01:13:20.900 --> 01:13:22.500
<v Chris Patterson>what it is that they want.

01:13:22.500 --> 01:13:25.800
<v Chris Patterson>And because of the differential between internal combustion engines,

01:13:25.980 --> 01:13:28.680
<v Chris Patterson>ICE, and EVs, the government could have a role.

01:13:28.800 --> 01:13:31.460
<v Chris Patterson>They could subsidise that. Now, of course, they did bring that policy in.

01:13:31.520 --> 01:13:33.940
<v Chris Patterson>I'm not going to say that that was my idea. It just might have been something

01:13:33.940 --> 01:13:34.960
<v Chris Patterson>that I brought up at the time.

01:13:35.980 --> 01:13:40.240
<v Chris Patterson>And there was a little bit of flack. We had Christopher Luxon,

01:13:40.520 --> 01:13:46.940
<v Chris Patterson>our PM's wife, getting the subsidy for the Tesla car and all of those issues.

01:13:46.960 --> 01:13:51.640
<v Chris Patterson>But what it's done is it's shown that actually electric cars can work in New

01:13:51.640 --> 01:13:53.860
<v Chris Patterson>Zealand and there is a future for them.

01:13:53.980 --> 01:13:57.900
<v Chris Patterson>And as the price comes down and they're more used and all of that,

01:13:58.060 --> 01:14:00.460
<v Chris Patterson>we can start transitioning.

01:14:00.640 --> 01:14:04.060
<v Chris Patterson>But that's a good example of the law. It's a policy that's coming through the

01:14:04.060 --> 01:14:07.940
<v Chris Patterson>law to encourage people to adopt these technologies.

01:14:08.600 --> 01:14:12.300
<v Chris Patterson>And look, there's one thing that I've noticed with going back to solar panels.

01:14:12.600 --> 01:14:15.720
<v Chris Patterson>You know, I remember I put some solar panels in Great Barrier Island back in

01:14:15.720 --> 01:14:20.140
<v Chris Patterson>2000. I think I paid like $650 for an 80 watt panel.

01:14:20.500 --> 01:14:27.120
<v Chris Patterson>Well, just recently I was able to get a 450 watt panel for 320 bucks.

01:14:27.280 --> 01:14:31.420
<v Jessica Palairet>The technology is just getting better and better and the price is coming down and down.

01:14:31.720 --> 01:14:34.860
<v Chris Patterson>And we just need to encourage that. You know, I'm looking with you at a lot

01:14:34.860 --> 01:14:37.760
<v Chris Patterson>of futures looking good. And, you know, there's one thing about.

01:14:38.603 --> 01:14:42.423
<v Chris Patterson>You know, the human race and particularly us as Kiwis is that,

01:14:42.823 --> 01:14:46.423
<v Chris Patterson>you know, we've got a proud history of being innovators.

01:14:46.643 --> 01:14:51.263
<v Chris Patterson>Whenever there's a problem, for some reason, Kiwi ingenuity is keen to lend

01:14:51.263 --> 01:14:53.283
<v Chris Patterson>a hand and come up with a solution.

01:14:53.723 --> 01:14:57.183
<v Chris Patterson>And maybe that's just what we need to do is just say, hey, you know,

01:14:57.243 --> 01:15:00.923
<v Chris Patterson>I know it's easy to just pump gas into, you know, your tractor or,

01:15:01.203 --> 01:15:05.703
<v Chris Patterson>you know, to do whatever it is that you're going to do, but we'll come up with

01:15:05.703 --> 01:15:07.343
<v Chris Patterson>a solution to make these things better.

01:15:07.603 --> 01:15:11.603
<v Jessica Palairet>Totally. And this is part of the point of the book is there are Kiwis working

01:15:11.603 --> 01:15:16.543
<v Jessica Palairet>on this and, you know, awesome Kiwi companies leading the way in sustainability

01:15:16.543 --> 01:15:18.623
<v Jessica Palairet>and that's something to celebrate.

01:15:18.923 --> 01:15:21.483
<v Jessica Palairet>And I think Kiwi ingenuity can take us a long way.

01:15:21.743 --> 01:15:25.823
<v Chris Patterson>Do you think there's maybe a role in actual, in our education?

01:15:26.003 --> 01:15:27.803
<v Chris Patterson>I was thinking about, you know, lawyers, but what about through,

01:15:28.083 --> 01:15:31.743
<v Chris Patterson>you know, school education? Do you think this should be, you know,

01:15:31.823 --> 01:15:36.603
<v Chris Patterson>like a compulsory topic at some point about, you know, the climate,

01:15:36.883 --> 01:15:38.863
<v Chris Patterson>you know, and how, you know, what can be done.

01:15:39.043 --> 01:15:42.003
<v Jessica Palairet>You know, I don't have a strong view on whether it should be compulsory.

01:15:42.423 --> 01:15:48.643
<v Jessica Palairet>I imagine, and the young people I talk to certainly, I think young people know about climate change.

01:15:48.763 --> 01:15:52.383
<v Jessica Palairet>And this is, of course, because it's a problem that affects younger generations

01:15:52.383 --> 01:15:54.203
<v Jessica Palairet>much more than it affects older generations.

01:15:54.203 --> 01:15:55.943
<v Chris Patterson>Well, they're going to inherit these problems, you know, this

01:15:55.943 --> 01:16:00.863
<v Jessica Palairet>Is the thing. And so I actually, I don't know whether education of young people about,

01:16:01.479 --> 01:16:06.139
<v Jessica Palairet>is necessarily the answer. I mean, I think civics education would be really

01:16:06.139 --> 01:16:11.619
<v Jessica Palairet>important in high schools to then kind of teach people about how they can influence

01:16:11.619 --> 01:16:13.879
<v Jessica Palairet>the law and how they can influence decision-making.

01:16:14.219 --> 01:16:17.599
<v Jessica Palairet>But yeah, this is part of the challenges with climate change,

01:16:17.719 --> 01:16:24.019
<v Jessica Palairet>which has vexed the sector for decades now, which is that fundamentally it's

01:16:24.019 --> 01:16:26.779
<v Jessica Palairet>a long-term problem that affects future generations.

01:16:27.179 --> 01:16:30.519
<v Jessica Palairet>And there's been really interesting law in other countries developed actually

01:16:30.519 --> 01:16:34.359
<v Jessica Palairet>around impacts on future generations and taking future generations into account

01:16:34.359 --> 01:16:36.039
<v Jessica Palairet>and decision making now.

01:16:36.599 --> 01:16:40.019
<v Jessica Palairet>So yeah, I don't know if it needs to be compulsory. I think young people know

01:16:40.019 --> 01:16:43.039
<v Jessica Palairet>the challenge that's coming for them. And they've been young leaders.

01:16:43.279 --> 01:16:47.439
<v Jessica Palairet>I mean, the young Pacific students that started the ICJ advisory opinion,

01:16:48.119 --> 01:16:53.179
<v Jessica Palairet>boy, do they know what climate change is doing and the impact that that's going to have on the Pacific.

01:16:54.033 --> 01:16:56.933
<v Jessica Palairet>More about equipping young people with the tools and actually having decision

01:16:56.933 --> 01:17:01.233
<v Jessica Palairet>makers line up with them and listen. I think that's actually probably more important.

01:17:01.933 --> 01:17:06.013
<v Chris Patterson>Now, look, for a listener, whether they're a lawyer, an academic,

01:17:06.373 --> 01:17:11.413
<v Chris Patterson>a farmer, if they want to go and learn more about climate law,

01:17:11.913 --> 01:17:13.233
<v Chris Patterson>how do they go about that?

01:17:13.333 --> 01:17:16.253
<v Chris Patterson>What are the resources available? What things could they do?

01:17:16.493 --> 01:17:20.333
<v Jessica Palairet>Well, we've got a website with a ton of resources on it. We're on social media.

01:17:20.473 --> 01:17:23.013
<v Jessica Palairet>You can follow us on LinkedIn, follow us on Instagram.

01:17:23.573 --> 01:17:27.173
<v Jessica Palairet>If you want to sign up as a member, we welcome members. The more members we

01:17:27.173 --> 01:17:28.893
<v Jessica Palairet>are, the stronger we can do it as an organisation.

01:17:28.893 --> 01:17:29.553
<v Chris Patterson>Do you have to be a lawyer, though?

01:17:29.793 --> 01:17:33.673
<v Jessica Palairet>You know, you don't. We also offer associate membership. So if you just support

01:17:33.673 --> 01:17:36.933
<v Jessica Palairet>our work, you don't have a legal background, you can sign up as an associate

01:17:36.933 --> 01:17:39.393
<v Jessica Palairet>member. We've got a monthly newsletter that goes out.

01:17:39.733 --> 01:17:44.453
<v Jessica Palairet>So those would be awesome ways to support. And then, of course, the book.

01:17:44.653 --> 01:17:48.053
<v Jessica Palairet>If you want to learn more, there's an entire chapter written about it and amongst

01:17:48.053 --> 01:17:52.133
<v Jessica Palairet>all these other chapters from New Zealand thought leaders about the role of

01:17:52.133 --> 01:17:53.253
<v Jessica Palairet>climate and what's happening,

01:17:53.713 --> 01:17:57.193
<v Jessica Palairet>you know, and includes actually, there's chapters written by farmers and they

01:17:57.193 --> 01:18:00.573
<v Jessica Palairet>said, you know, former politicians and young people and there's all sorts of

01:18:00.573 --> 01:18:04.533
<v Jessica Palairet>Kiwis who have contributed to this book. So that'd be my other suggestion.

01:18:05.113 --> 01:18:09.473
<v Chris Patterson>Jessica Pallaret, thank you so much for joining me on the Law Down Under podcast.

01:18:09.673 --> 01:18:13.413
<v Chris Patterson>It's been a fascinating discussion covering what is a, you know,

01:18:13.513 --> 01:18:18.993
<v Chris Patterson>a global legal issue that, or issues that we should all be thinking about because,

01:18:18.993 --> 01:18:22.813
<v Chris Patterson>you know, there is no planet B for us at the moment.

01:18:22.813 --> 01:18:30.473
<v Chris Patterson>This is our planet and we need to use and look to the law where we can to ensure

01:18:30.473 --> 01:18:32.233
<v Chris Patterson>that we can continue to enjoy,

01:18:32.433 --> 01:18:35.933
<v Chris Patterson>you know, not only our great Aotearoa and how beautiful it is,

01:18:36.053 --> 01:18:37.933
<v Chris Patterson>but just everything else. So thank you again.

01:18:38.133 --> 01:18:39.553
<v Jessica Palairet>No, thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure.

01:18:40.710 --> 01:18:44.110
<v Chris Patterson>Thank you for tuning in and listening to this episode of the Law Down Under podcast.

01:18:44.670 --> 01:18:47.990
<v Chris Patterson>You're welcome to join in on the discussion via my podcast page,

01:18:48.130 --> 01:18:50.550
<v Chris Patterson>which you can access at patterson.co.nz.

01:18:50.930 --> 01:18:55.750
<v Chris Patterson>That's p-a-t-t-e-r-s-o-n dot c-o dot n-z.

01:18:56.070 --> 01:18:59.570
<v Chris Patterson>Thanks for supporting the podcast and tune in again for more on the law,

01:18:59.790 --> 01:19:02.470
<v Chris Patterson>its application, and the future of the law here Down Under.